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East German Stasi Tactics – Zersetzung (2021)

maxhertzberg.co.uk

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Re: East German Stasi Tactics – Zersetzung (2021)

#191

Post by Saline9515 »

Arkhaine_kupo wrote: post #188
Saline9515 wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Citizens are supposed to have critical thinking to distinguish what's right and wrong, what's true and false. Freedom of speech allows to hear different views and apply this critical thinking. The problem is that you seem to know better and want to choose what's allowed and not allowed to say, given your political bias and contempt for your fellow citizens. Last, democracy is not about empowering (what an empty word.…

> Citizens are supposed to have critical thinking i wish someone didnt dismantle the education department of the federal goverment.... > Freedom of speech allows to hear different views and apply this critical thinking. thats all well and good except it has never existed in the US, with countless examples of people being jailed for wrongthink it just happened that those people were all leftist. The second accountabil…

Then how about empowering them to - speak? Not just say what you believe is allowed to say (this is authoritarian).

I'm talking about the practice of democracy, by the way.

And regarding mass rapes, being British yourself is clearly not a reference for truth. The wikipedia article I linked mentioned a mass grooming case in this town. You can't close your eyes on the evidence each time it doesn't follow your totalitarian narrative and expect that people will just shut up. Or you have to pass laws to do it, which ends up with the toxic situation of the UK, that has nothing to envy to the USSR.

Which is kind of funny given that you have laws to punish people who said something "creating anxiety", which is ... a feeling and totally subjective?

And there is no difference with Germany. Freedom a speech isn't something only for the affluent, first world. And the war in Syria started due to political repression against free speech being expressed against the regime. It didn't end so well for said regime.

Re: East German Stasi Tactics – Zersetzung (2021)

#192

Post by Arkhaine_kupo »

Saline9515 wrote: post #187
Arkhaine_kupo wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> wanted to silence their political opponents in the past administration Literally when? Bezos bought a newspaper, Elon bought Twitter, Trump was on TV daily (and not being prosecuted by the DOJ), Ben Shapiro was again the most promoted video network in facebook, RFK was spreading misinformation left and right and is now telling the worls that autistic people can never pay taxes while Elon pays his salary. Like name…

I mean, we are coming out of a decade of cancel culture on campuses[0]. Elon Musk was clearly radicalized by it, which led him to buy Twitter. Jordan Peterson's fame was partly due to him standing up in front of the obligation to use various pronouns at work, with the threat of getting fired.[1] [0] https://archive.is/6zyUA [1] https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-37875695

> we are coming out of a decade of cancel culture on campuses

You should read your own article. A drunk dude kissed a girl without asking, and his friends thought that was kinda shit an uninvited him to a christmas party. That is the cancel culture that is "silencing" people?

Nigel Farage is on TV day in and day out lying about things but one white dude from Oxford uni got univited to a christmas dinner...

> Elon Musk was clearly radicalized by it,

No he wasn't. There are plenty of theories about Elon Musk descent but none of them stem from any real pushback against cancel culture. His image began being tarnished with him calling a dude who saved some kids a pe do over not using his submarine. When he bought Twitter he made the point he wasn't gonna change much etc, 3 months after purchasing it he said he was not interested in politics and would not donate to any candidate, then he donated 400 million to Donald Trump's campaign.

Whether you wanna go down the route that his daughter being trans affected him, his friendship with epstein and Maxwell, his open ketamine use, or his ties to Russia (such as allowing Russia to use starlink, or cutting Ukraine off in parts of the conflict) its hard to know when and were he went from "i love the lgbt, green energy and im iron man" to "im gonna retweet neo nazis talking about replacement theory". But it has nothing to do with cancel culture.

> Jordan Peterson's fame was partly due to him standing up in front of the obligation to use various pronouns at work, with the threat of getting fired.[1]

That is not true. The law in Canada did not even say that. He was famous because post Obama the number of conservative causes was dwindiling and a number of think tanks found trans issues to be a perfect powder keg (they use similar reasoning Nazi's did when they burned trans research in the 30s). Its small, polirising, nuanced and most people have never seen or interacted with trans people or issues. It has a great ability to mold the talking points without any input from the actual people being discussed (its the same issue they love Fetuses and pregnant women, you can say anything without the fetus ever contradicting you).

In this push of think tanks he was used as a standard bearer, and given way more attention and money than any of his points ever deserved. The anti feminist videos on youtube, and a man on a suit disucissing against overly emotional 18 year olds became an entire genre of bad faith arguments (on both sides of the aisle, there are now plenty of "owning trump voters" content).

He then wrote a book about doing your bed, some insanely inacurate attempts at jungian psychology to impress 15 year olds and the money to push his videos on youtube did the rest.

The reality of a figure like Peterson is that he is a very flawed, and intellectually limited individual. His work on semiotics is super interesting but outside of his niche field he is clearly out of depth. His own personal failings, despite humanising him, make for a tragic figure when you realise many young men who are lost look up to him.

I have 0 issue with someone promoting some version of neo stoicism and how being a man should be, but when you get addicted to benzos and fly to russia to give yourself permanent brain damage because you are too much of a wuss to survive the withdrawl symptons then you should drop your philosphy because it clearly does not work.

Re: East German Stasi Tactics – Zersetzung (2021)

#193

Post by Arkhaine_kupo »

Saline9515 wrote: post #191
Arkhaine_kupo wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Citizens are supposed to have critical thinking i wish someone didnt dismantle the education department of the federal goverment.... > Freedom of speech allows to hear different views and apply this critical thinking. thats all well and good except it has never existed in the US, with countless examples of people being jailed for wrongthink it just happened that those people were all leftist. The second accountabil…

Then how about empowering them to - speak? Not just say what you believe is allowed to say (this is authoritarian). I'm talking about the practice of democracy, by the way. And regarding mass rapes, being British yourself is clearly not a reference for truth. The wikipedia article I linked mentioned a mass grooming case in this town. You can't close your eyes on the evidence each time it doesn't follow your totalitar…

> Then how about empowering them to - speak?

The strain of anti intellectualism has been a constant thread... nurtured by the false notion that democracy means my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge - Isaac Asimov

Being able to speak is not the same as having something to say. Knowing when to shut up is an important part of being a rational adult.

> I'm talking about the practice of democracy, by the way.

North Korea practices your democracy, they get to vote. Is that enough?

> he wikipedia article I linked

and I gave you a 3 paragraph explanation on the case. The police never said that, a neo nazi and a failing politician did. You are actively repeating lies while saying people are smart enough to never fall for them, are you just not aware you are being duped?

> You can't close your eyes on the evidence each time it doesn't follow your totalitarian narrative and expect that people will just shut up. Or you have to pass laws to do it, which ends up with the toxic situation of the UK, that has nothing to envy to the USSR.

yeah yeah if we dont allow racists to repeat lies then we end up like Venezuela. I get the vibe, but howabout we jail neo nazis, and hold youtubers to the same standards as news so we dont allow misinformation to spread so wide that people are repeating their narratives years later?

> Which is kind of funny given that you have laws to punish people who said something "creating anxiety", which is ... a feeling and totally subjective?

Those laws were passed by the "anti woke" party to have vague sentencing to punish people like Just Stop Oil and the black rights marches. It is not the kind of "cancel culture gone mad" you think it is, it is the exact kind of entitled, feelings > reality nonsense I am arguing against. You just dont like when the "woke" judges use the rules you wanted passed to hurt others

Re: East German Stasi Tactics – Zersetzung (2021)

#194

Post by foldr »

aaaja wrote: post #190
foldr wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok, so lots of sources that don’t show what was originally claimed (i.e. someone holding a placard at a recent protest in London calling for the death of JK Rowling). I don’t know why it irks you so much that people would fact check this particular claim. I agree that it’s not central to the original poster’s overall point, but it’s not ok to invent facts just because your argument could probably get by without them.

https://x.com/helenlewis/status/1913857239691006057 Some photos of the placards, including "Bring back witch burning ... JK" and "The only good TERF is a ____ one" with an image of a person being executed by hanging.

The TERF one was posted earlier but obviously doesn’t mention JK Rowling. As to the other example, thanks for posting a source rather than just expressing annoyance that anyone would be asking for one. I think it takes some Yogi-level stretching to reach the conclusion that the person holding the JK placard is “calling for the death of JK Rowling”, but it’s at least in the right ballpark.

Re: East German Stasi Tactics – Zersetzung (2021)

#195

Post by Helmut10001 »

lazide wrote: post #179
Helmut10001 wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Germany you have to file an action for possession ("Räumungsklage"). But that takes years (I brought it on its the way immediately). You cannot act on your own, it has to be legally enforced. But the legal system in Germany takes ages and human rights are higher than tenancy rights (usually good!). This often leads to deadlocks where nothing happens because you cannot evict someone and put them on the street.

Another case where the ‘winning move’ is to either have enough money small issues like this are in the noise, or no money at all (on the books) so society goes out of it’s way to not do anything. Also known as ‘on both ends of the economic spectrum exists a leisure class’.

Interesting, I hadn't heard of that, but it fits perfectly!

Re: East German Stasi Tactics – Zersetzung (2021)

#196

Post by DonHopkins »

Arkhaine_kupo wrote: post #192
Saline9515 wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, we are coming out of a decade of cancel culture on campuses[0]. Elon Musk was clearly radicalized by it, which led him to buy Twitter. Jordan Peterson's fame was partly due to him standing up in front of the obligation to use various pronouns at work, with the threat of getting fired.[1] [0] https://archive.is/6zyUA [1] https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-37875695

> we are coming out of a decade of cancel culture on campuses You should read your own article. A drunk dude kissed a girl without asking, and his friends thought that was kinda shit an uninvited him to a christmas party. That is the cancel culture that is "silencing" people? Nigel Farage is on TV day in and day out lying about things but one white dude from Oxford uni got univited to a christmas dinner... > Elon Mus…

Wow. Thanks for inspiring me to ask. Why haven't they covered this in South Park yet? It would make such a great episode.

Summary:

Jordan Peterson, after becoming a media figure, struggled severely with benzodiazepine (benzo) addiction (drugs like clonazepam, often prescribed for anxiety). In 2019-2020, his health sharply declined:

He had a severe physical and psychological dependency on benzodiazepines.

He reportedly developed "akathisia" — an intensely painful restlessness often associated with withdrawal or side effects.

After several unsuccessful treatments in North America, Peterson was taken to Russia by his family, where he underwent a medically induced coma and controversial detox procedures to try to end his benzo dependency.

Why Russia?

At the time, his family said that the treatment options available in the West were either not effective, too dangerous, or unavailable. Some reports indicated that the Russian clinic used unorthodox treatments — things that might not be approved or widely practiced in Canada or the U.S. The whole episode was seen by many critics and even supporters as deeply tragic and unsettling, especially for someone whose public message was based on personal responsibility, resilience, and stoic perseverance.

Outcome:

Peterson survived, but his recovery was long and painful. Later interviews (including one with his daughter, Mikhaila Peterson) showed him visibly frail. His cognitive sharpness, many observed, seemed noticeably impacted for some time afterward.

Jordan Peterson: Health Problems:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jordan_Peterson?utm_source=cha...

Jordan Peterson suffers year of 'absolute hell' and needs emergency treatment for drug addiction that forced him to withdraw from public life, daughter says:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/jordan-peter...

Controversial Scholar Jordan Peterson Treated for Addiction in Russia:

https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2020/02/10/controversial-scho...

Drug Experts on Jordan Peterson Seeking Treatment in Russia for Benzo Dependence:

https://www.vice.com/en/article/what-drug-experts-say-about-...

The Jordan Peterson Benzo Story — Terminology, Rapid Detox, and Media Coverage:

https://www.easinganxiety.com/post/the-jordan-peterson-benzo...

Re: East German Stasi Tactics – Zersetzung (2021)

#197

Post by Saline9515 »

Arkhaine_kupo wrote: post #192
Saline9515 wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, we are coming out of a decade of cancel culture on campuses[0]. Elon Musk was clearly radicalized by it, which led him to buy Twitter. Jordan Peterson's fame was partly due to him standing up in front of the obligation to use various pronouns at work, with the threat of getting fired.[1] [0] https://archive.is/6zyUA [1] https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-37875695

> we are coming out of a decade of cancel culture on campuses You should read your own article. A drunk dude kissed a girl without asking, and his friends thought that was kinda shit an uninvited him to a christmas party. That is the cancel culture that is "silencing" people? Nigel Farage is on TV day in and day out lying about things but one white dude from Oxford uni got univited to a christmas dinner... > Elon Mus…

I read the article, it goes in depth to explain cancel culture in campus, its origins, has various testimonies. Cancelling and censorship is a classic of anglo puritanism, which you represent well in this discussion.

Same for Peterson, you can argue as you want, the article says that he would be fined for not calling someone with their invented pronouns. And yes, that's how he got famous since it gave him media coverage. I'm not discussing his intellectual merits here, but freedom of speech. I don't think that you have the ability to separate topics, so it's kind of pointless.

Trans issues are a very good case of why we need freedom of speech, and why threatening to kill people who do not agree with you is rather bad? It deals with underaged people at a time they are vulnerable, the evidence regarding the treatments is rather weak and it was ultra marginal before media gave it a large positive coverage.

And yes, a father saying that his daughter shouldn't have to share showers or toilets with biological men is totally reasonable in his freedom of speech to say it.

Re: East German Stasi Tactics – Zersetzung (2021)

#198

Post by n4r9 »

okeuro49 wrote: post #183
n4r9 wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The context also needs to be noted. This was part of the social media storm that whipped up a wave of right-wing, racist hatred and violence in the wake of the Southport riots. No such waves of violence have sprung out of trans activism.

There is no "far right" or people being "whipped up". Disorder is a consequence of failed government policy. E.g. from 2023: "Northern seaside town now a 'powder keg' over asylum seeker tensions" "The tension in Skegness has grown after hundreds of migrants from the Middle East, Africa and Albania were crammed into former tourist hotels on the seafront." "Cars have been vandalised, shop windows broken, mattresses set…

> There is no "far right" or people being "whipped up".

The wikipedia page about the riots has 127 mentions of "far-right" [0]. From the very start there were links between the protestors and organisations like the EDL. The online misinformation was spread by far-right influencers such Tommy Robinson, Katie Hopkins, and Andrew Tate, as well as a host of global right-wing accounts. The organisation Alliance4Europe which campaigns against online misinformation found that "non-domestic far-right groups played a significant role in inflaming tensions following the Southport murders" [1].

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2024_United_Kingdom_riots

[1] https://alliance4europe.eu/the-international-far-rights-impa...

Re: East German Stasi Tactics – Zersetzung (2021)

#199

Post by hn_throw2025 »

foldr wrote: post #194
aaaja wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://x.com/helenlewis/status/1913857239691006057 Some photos of the placards, including "Bring back witch burning ... JK" and "The only good TERF is a ____ one" with an image of a person being executed by hanging.

The TERF one was posted earlier but obviously doesn’t mention JK Rowling. As to the other example, thanks for posting a source rather than just expressing annoyance that anyone would be asking for one. I think it takes some Yogi-level stretching to reach the conclusion that the person holding the JK placard is “calling for the death of JK Rowling”, but it’s at least in the right ballpark.

You are factually accurate. They probably just meant a warning immolation.

Re: East German Stasi Tactics – Zersetzung (2021)

#200

Post by tossandthrow »

saagarjha wrote: post #150
tossandthrow wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So people have been arrested for posting something online, even if nobody appears to have seen it, and they delete it shortly after. The message you are quoting is now being propagated,which is unfortunate. Most of the western world is moving to a risk based legal system and has a proportionaly measure build in. If the message in question had a limited reach, then it should not lead to a conviction. Just like we do…

I'm not sharing the message because it brings me joy to have it shown to more people. I think it's a pretty reprehensible thing to say. I'm sure people say worse into their personal diary or even among friends and that is not criminalized. I might possibly even consider the defense of "oh nobody really reads my posts anyway and I deleted it quickly". But I absolutely will not stand for trying to claim that the post w…

I am not trying to say that it was not hateful - and proper moderation should be in place. Just like it has always been.

I am merely trying to say that there should be proportion in the reaction.

The society does not give you a death sentence to jay walk.

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