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East German Stasi Tactics – Zersetzung (2021)

maxhertzberg.co.uk

141–150 of 256 posts

Re: East German Stasi Tactics – Zersetzung (2021)

#141
post #130
post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The original claim was that people were carrying placards at a recent protest in London calling for the death of JK Rowling. It’s not obvious that this has in fact happened, and it’s reasonable to ask for evidence of it.

Let me google that for you: https://celebrity.nine.com.au/latest/jk-rowling-slams-transg... I'm just saying, I didn't even check before this comment. And who knew? bunch of death threats targeting Rowling with activists trying to make sure everyone can find her in meatspace in case the threat makes her quieten down. "Did she receive death threats" is really not the part of this to try and question. And if you want to…

Ok, so lots of sources that don’t show what was originally claimed (i.e. someone holding a placard at a recent protest in London calling for the death of JK Rowling).

I don’t know why it irks you so much that people would fact check this particular claim. I agree that it’s not central to the original poster’s overall point, but it’s not ok to invent facts just because your argument could probably get by without them.

Re: East German Stasi Tactics – Zersetzung (2021)

#142

In the UK there is "social media intelligence", where AI systems scan the firehose of messages as they appear. [1] So people have been arrested for posting something online, even if nobody appears to have seen it, and they delete it shortly after. The policing is selective, depending on political view. For example, there were recently people with placards in London calling for the death of JK Rowling, which is de fac…

You put hateful in quotes but I do want to point out that this is the tweet from the thing you linked: > Mass deportation now, set fire to all the f*** hotels full of the bastards for all I care …. I feel physically sick knowing what these families will now have to endure. If that makes me racist so be it

> So people have been arrested for posting something online, even if nobody appears to have seen it, and they delete it shortly after.

The message you are quoting is now being propagated,which is unfortunate.

Most of the western world is moving to a risk based legal system and has a proportionaly measure build in.

If the message in question had a limited reach, then it should not lead to a conviction.

Just like we don't convict people who has inappropriate thoughts or write inappropriate things in their diary.

Re: East German Stasi Tactics – Zersetzung (2021)

#143
post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a tenant who has been living in my garden house for two years without paying rent. It is almost impossible to solve this situation. I am not even allowed to turn off the water or electricity. There are always two sides to every coin.

That’s just crazy. Were they ever a paying tenant and stopped paying. or just random stranger who broke in and decided they now lived there?

It was the neighbour whose house had burned down, and my mother let him move into our garden house (because winter was coming). They agreed to make a rental contract. But after he moved in, he refused to pay anything and since then it has been impossible to change that.

Re: East German Stasi Tactics – Zersetzung (2021)

#144
post #109
post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That sucks. What law protects your renter?

Squatting laws, sounds like.

In Germany you have to file an action for possession ("Räumungsklage"). But that takes years (I brought it on its the way immediately). You cannot act on your own, it has to be legally enforced. But the legal system in Germany takes ages and human rights are higher than tenancy rights (usually good!). This often leads to deadlocks where nothing happens because you cannot evict someone and put them on the street.

Re: East German Stasi Tactics – Zersetzung (2021)

#145

How does one reconcile the idea that the Stasi disappeared political opponents regularly but also engaged in weird stuff like moving people's socks around. > The final stages entailed psychological and physical harassment: moving things around at home (one morning the alarm clock goes off at 5am instead of 7am, and the socks are in the wrong drawer, there’s no coffee left …); damage to bikes and vehicles (eg slashing…

The Stasi documented what they did in quite some detail and most of the documents were not destroyed during the fall of the wall. So, there is no need for speculation.

I'm by no means an expert on the matter but as far as I know, the Stasi did not disappear political opponents regularly, at least not after Stalin's time. I looked over the article and didn't find that claim but if I missed it and it's in there, then the article is wrong about it. The Stasi had a large array of measures at disposal. Some people were cleared for moving out of the country to West Germany. Others went to prison. Some people were exposed to radioactive materials. Others got a better job that moved them away from other dissidents.

Specific "Zersetzungsmaßnahmen" you and the article mention were very rare - we're talking about an estimated few hundred to thousands cases in total. When they occurred, however, they were extremely devastating because not even experienced critics of the system imagined them. We're not just talking about switching socks and replacing good milk with spoiled one in the fridge. There were also cases of medical doctors prescribing the wrong drugs, for example, worsening the symptoms of diseases.

As far as I know, who became the victim of these special measures may not have been a fully rational decision. It seemed to be based to a large extent on the preferences of the case officers in charge.

Broader measures against critics of the system were far more common, however, and way more pervasive than what most people suspected at the time. For example, the father of a former girlfriend of mine was a famous GDR rock musician. He later found out from the archives that the Stasi planned and supervised his whole life and managed to break up his former band without anyone suspecting it. One guy moved somewhere else for work, another went to prison, and he moved elsewhere, too. There were also way more informants than he ever suspected. Basically, the Stasi and their informants interfered with what other artists he met, were he and his band mates got work, and so on. They planned over years. It went far beyond the usual method of giving people a telephone and letting them hear a loud click when the tape was switched on (they did that, too!).

> it seems very unlikely to me that using resources to troll someone like this provides an effort/reward ratio that would be interesting to someone with that much existing power

Nevertheless, this happened. The Stasi was a huge bureaucratic organization with ideology at its core, built after the example of the KGB. Stasi officers considered themselves fully in the right, defending their people against counter-revolutionary and decadent activities. Goals ranged from "helping" citizens get on the right track towards socialism in a friendly but firm manner, over collecting information about potential adverse political activities, to completely destroying enemies of the state and doing counter-espionage.

Re: East German Stasi Tactics – Zersetzung (2021)

#146
post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a tenant who has been living in my garden house for two years without paying rent. It is almost impossible to solve this situation. I am not even allowed to turn off the water or electricity. There are always two sides to every coin.

What country?

Germany, of course.

Re: East German Stasi Tactics – Zersetzung (2021)

#147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There was a CCC talk on the practices of the Stasi some years ago (I forget exactly which year). What stayed with me from the talk was that they had shown recovered Stasi photos of a young man's home where he had a wall dedicated to American iconography. The speaker stated that in the current era this would just be trivially collected from social media instead of needing to gain physical access to property. Edit: It…

Thanks for the pointer, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FS2oAOieECk > Over the course of three years, I was able to research the archives left by East Germany's Stasi to look for visual memories of this notorious surveillance system and more recently I was invited to spend some weeks looking at the archive by the Czechoslovak StB. Illustrating with images I have found during my research, I would like to address the q…

The birthday party with Stasi members dressed up as the individuals they spy on is really brutal, the costumes themselves were likely confiscated from their victims. Stereotypically confirming that "German sense of humor is not a laughing matter". There is always a brutally cynical undertone in their jokes.

Re: East German Stasi Tactics – Zersetzung (2021)

#148
post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The original post said that people had placards “calling for the death of JK Rowling”. It may be that the poster’s overall point does not rely on this specific factual claim. But don’t try to muddy the waters around this: it’s a straightforward factual claim and people are right to ask if it can be sourced. So far it has not been.

If there was a protest where people had signs that said “death to ” while screaming “fuck ”, and calls were made to defecate on that person’s art, would you say death threats were made about that person? Please take a moment to substitute various groups and people.

The legal system does not operate according to blanket statements. Police make a judgement of whether the death threat is credible. This depends on how specific the threat is and whether it occurs in the context of likely violence.

Re: East German Stasi Tactics – Zersetzung (2021)

#149
post #122

In the UK there is "social media intelligence", where AI systems scan the firehose of messages as they appear. [1] So people have been arrested for posting something online, even if nobody appears to have seen it, and they delete it shortly after. The policing is selective, depending on political view. For example, there were recently people with placards in London calling for the death of JK Rowling, which is de fac…

This case sounds crazy, I cannot even imagine loosing a child and how anybody could expect someone to keep sane in those conditions. Beyond this, there is a very clear difference between inciting hatred towards a group of people based on race, religion, nationality, origin, etc, and towards a single individual without those aggravations. The law is quite clear about this distinction in various countries (Public Order…

There's not actually.

Re: East German Stasi Tactics – Zersetzung (2021)

#150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You put hateful in quotes but I do want to point out that this is the tweet from the thing you linked: > Mass deportation now, set fire to all the f*** hotels full of the bastards for all I care …. I feel physically sick knowing what these families will now have to endure. If that makes me racist so be it

> So people have been arrested for posting something online, even if nobody appears to have seen it, and they delete it shortly after. The message you are quoting is now being propagated,which is unfortunate. Most of the western world is moving to a risk based legal system and has a proportionaly measure build in. If the message in question had a limited reach, then it should not lead to a conviction. Just like we do…

I'm not sharing the message because it brings me joy to have it shown to more people. I think it's a pretty reprehensible thing to say. I'm sure people say worse into their personal diary or even among friends and that is not criminalized. I might possibly even consider the defense of "oh nobody really reads my posts anyway and I deleted it quickly".

But I absolutely will not stand for trying to claim that the post was scare-quotes "hateful". It was hateful, full stop. This is not polite discourse that was unfairly marked as hate because of some political slant. It was clearly hate, even if wasn't seen by anyone, even if it got deleted.

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