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East German Stasi Tactics – Zersetzung (2021)

maxhertzberg.co.uk

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Re: East German Stasi Tactics – Zersetzung (2021)

#21

Post by lb1lf »

sien wrote: post #4

It's remarkable how quickly Communism collapsed in Eastern Europe the moment Soviet support went. Despite decades of intense propaganda, killings of people in uprisings and the methods of Stasi as described in the article. Even with all that effort most people didn't believe in the regime. So it's hard to say whether the Stasi's tactics worked. Only people in the regimes like Ceausescu and Honecker actually thought p…

As for your last point, Solzhenitzyn said something memorable about that -

'We know that they are lying, they know that they are lying, they even know that we know they are lying, we also know that they know we know they are lying too, they of course know that we certainly know they know we know they are lying too as well, but they are still lying. In our country, the lie has become not just moral category, but the pillar industry of this country.'

Re: East German Stasi Tactics – Zersetzung (2021)

#22

Post by sofixa »

sien wrote: post #4

It's remarkable how quickly Communism collapsed in Eastern Europe the moment Soviet support went. Despite decades of intense propaganda, killings of people in uprisings and the methods of Stasi as described in the article. Even with all that effort most people didn't believe in the regime. So it's hard to say whether the Stasi's tactics worked. Only people in the regimes like Ceausescu and Honecker actually thought p…

As someone from a post-Communist country, unfortunately it didn't, exactly. The former ruling class just switched colours and looted the country during the "privatisation" phase of democratisation. People were never properly educated on democracy and stuff, and most of the parties that sprung up were just pure garbage interested in looting.

30 years on, the political landscape is still a disaster. Media is a shit show in the hands of a few. A lot of the older people (40+) long for the "good old days". A lot of the young have ran away for better opportunities. Democratic participation is very low.

The fall of the Communist regimes and subsequent liberalisation and democratisation were managed incredibly poorly in most of those countries. Yes, standards of living are much better, but if you ask a lot of the people, things are worse (because they're incapable of introspection, have been fed propaganda on Facebook and shit media, etc).

Re: East German Stasi Tactics – Zersetzung (2021)

#23

Post by TheDong »

begueradj wrote: post #11
quantumgarbage wrote: post #9

On this topic, I can't recommend enough the movie "The life of Others" (2006). Depicts surveillance in Eastern Germany and the state of sheer fear and paranoia its citizens had to live in.

In some European countries, if you apply to rent an apartment, the landlord can see you failed to pay 1 month rent several years ago. That's just a tiny example. Is this control and surveillance or ... democracy and freedom ?

And in the US, landlords can pull credit reports from private companies, and if the private company says you missed a credit card payment a year ago they'll reject you.

If the private credit score company returns a wrong score because someone else has the same name as you and they mixed up some records, well, it's a private company, you have no recourse.

Since it's not the government, but a for-profit private company, it can and will also sell your information.

If you opt out of this private company's system, landlords can and will reject you.

It is well known that the US is the most free country in the multiverse, so I would say no, having a government do it is not freedom (that's a social credit system like china has), but if instead it's a private company creating that credit score, that's freedom.

What law do you want to have to prevent this? Companies are people, and if your two previous land-lords are free to gossip about whether you paid rent (free speech), of course equifax should be able to sell that information (also free speech). People's right to privacy stops where free speech, and the ability of private entities to profit and raise GDP, starts.

Re: East German Stasi Tactics – Zersetzung (2021)

#24

Post by baxtr »

kmeisthax wrote: post #5

The section at the end about support and solidarity is the most important bit. Personally, I feel like Zersetzung has already been a thing in the US since at least 2014. Modern social media is very, very good at getting people to shout at each other and do nothing. People don't talk to each other, they shout to themselves while watching the telescreen.

I feel like it started 2001.

Unfortunately, it seems as if the terrorists might have achieved many of their goals years later.

Re: East German Stasi Tactics – Zersetzung (2021)

#25

Post by okeuro49 »

In the UK there is "social media intelligence", where AI systems scan the firehose of messages as they appear. [1]

So people have been arrested for posting something online, even if nobody appears to have seen it, and they delete it shortly after.

The policing is selective, depending on political view. For example, there were recently people with placards in London calling for the death of JK Rowling, which is de facto allowed by the police.

In comparison the wrong social media post can carry a lengthy jail sentence. [2]

The difference is so noticeable, it is now called "two tier policing".

If someone perceives something you say as "hateful" they can report you to the police, who can record a "Non-crime hate incident" against your name. [3]

This can show up on enhanced job checks, affecting employment.

It's very similar to a Stasi file.

[1] https://policinginsight.com/feature/advertisement/social-med...

[2] https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-punishment-of-lucy-c...

[3] https://www.slaterheelis.co.uk/articles/crime-category/non-c...

Re: East German Stasi Tactics – Zersetzung (2021)

#26

Post by ashoeafoot »

lifestyleguru wrote: post #14

So much effort and resources only to produce Trabants and Wartburgs. You will know them by the cars they produce.

https://www.theverge.com/electric-cars/655527/slate-electric...

indeed. the economic circumstances that produce. the situations that produce. a system that produces. which collapses and gives way to.

Re: East German Stasi Tactics – Zersetzung (2021)

#27

Post by walterbell »

quantumgarbage wrote: post #9

On this topic, I can't recommend enough the movie "The life of Others" (2006). Depicts surveillance in Eastern Germany and the state of sheer fear and paranoia its citizens had to live in.

From wikipedia surveillance movie list, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_films_featuring_survei..., these might interest a tech audience:

  Antitrust (2001)
  Anon (2018)
  Closed Circuit (2013)
  Eagle Eye (2008)
  Equilibrium (2002)

Re: East German Stasi Tactics – Zersetzung (2021)

#28

Post by sofixa »

paganel wrote: post #3

> than political grassroots activists have today in places such as Western Europe and North America That (2021) from the title is on the mark, as I think that by now, 2025, it has been made quite obvious that political protests in the West can only get up to a certain point, after which you risk prison, job loss or a combination of the two (even bough January 6 and the associated political repression took place in ea…

> even bough January 6 and the associated political repression took place in early 2021

Repression for a coup attempt is the expected and wanted outcome.

Also, please stop mixing the US, maybe Canada and UK with "the West". Political protests in France remain quite powerful, even if they haven't managed to force the government to go back on some long promised and long needed reforms (pensions).

Re: East German Stasi Tactics – Zersetzung (2021)

#29

Post by Helmut10001 »

lifestyleguru wrote: post #18
Helmut10001 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a tenant who has been living in my garden house for two years without paying rent. It is almost impossible to solve this situation. I am not even allowed to turn off the water or electricity. There are always two sides to every coin.

You wish to increase his rent 10% annually and after move out keep his deposit 6 months. Then confiscate 50% of the deposit for "damages". You wish!

In fact, I would first like to see rent being paid at all. And I don't have a deposit to keep.

Re: East German Stasi Tactics – Zersetzung (2021)

#30

Post by ddulaney »

TheDong wrote: post #23
begueradj wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In some European countries, if you apply to rent an apartment, the landlord can see you failed to pay 1 month rent several years ago. That's just a tiny example. Is this control and surveillance or ... democracy and freedom ?

And in the US, landlords can pull credit reports from private companies, and if the private company says you missed a credit card payment a year ago they'll reject you. If the private credit score company returns a wrong score because someone else has the same name as you and they mixed up some records, well, it's a private company, you have no recourse. Since it's not the government, but a for-profit private company…

This system absolutely sucks.

If you ever find yourself on the wrong end of it, read this article for advice but also explanations: https://www.kalzumeus.com/2017/09/09/identity-theft-credit-r...

Understanding how the system works, which buttons work and which don’t is half the battle.

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