Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Ask HN: CS degrees, do they matter again?

news.ycombinator.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

51–60 of 246 posts

Re: Ask HN: CS degrees, do they matter again?

#51

Post by hayst4ck »

o1o1o1 wrote: post #48

From my experience when I lived in Europe, the following is important to get a job in IT: - Degree, a general one is good, a specific one related to the job is better (especially in the German-speaking area, I don't know about the others) - Experience, especially in well-known big companies They used a trick there to reduce the leverage of employees in IT and created the myth of a "shortage of skilled workers" by rep…

They also said shortage of skilled workers in the US.

It's kind of upsetting because it's supposed to be the nature of free markets that demand increases price in order to better allocate labor resources, that means wages should be going up. So the message shouldn't be there's a shortage, the message should be that it's in high demand and that should be matched by increased starting salaries.

When anyone said "shortage of skilled workers" they meant "shortage of cheap satisfactory labor"/"software costs too much".

Re: Ask HN: CS degrees, do they matter again?

#52

Post by dinkumthinkum »

wai1234 wrote: post #20

I think you should ask yourself two related but separate questions: 1. Will the CS degree increase your knowledge and problem-solving ability faster than you could without it? 2. Will the credential add substantially to your credibility for hiring managers? The answer to 1 is mostly about your level of self-discipline and ability to learn independently. If you need the stimulus of a structured environment and a peer…

I take issue with your idea that it is "tier 2+" that are the only programs that are worth it. When you make statements like that, or prognostications of that nature, you have to think about how it actually is in reality and not as the kinds of base opinions that are found in Reddit CS careers subs. I think this varies widely for employers and even within teams of large employers, depending on who is the person doing the hiring. Even at a simplistic level having a degree from a regionally accredited institutions will decide whether you pass the first HR screen, so it cannot be equivalent to no credential at all.

This just fails a basic real world sensibility test. Are you saying a CS grade from Montana State University that is a hiring manager at FAANG (maybe even the most famous one) is going to consider someone with a degree from Stevens or Florida Institute of Technology to be equivalent to someone without a degree? I don't know if you are aware but there many people employed CS grads that did not attend the top 3. Also, I don't know about tiers, but these rankings are largely based on research and not quality of undergraduate program or outcomes.

The idea of telling someone that doesn't have a degree that wants to know of if attaining a degree could likely help their career that they should not go if it is not "tier 2+," whatever that is, is just kind of malpractice. Georgia Tech is not the only school that offers such a degree that is equivalent to their in-person program. I would agree that you should choose a school that has a traditional program for which this online program is just a different modality, rather than one of these online-only predatory type of schools.

Re: Ask HN: CS degrees, do they matter again?

#53

Post by platevoltage »

harrisonjackson wrote: post #41

I wouldn't recommend at this point in your career/life. Unless you are going to a tier 1 school you're just going to set your career back. If I was you, then I'd keep hustling with upwork and whatever else you need to while building and launching something meaningful on your own in the space you want to work. - slap a founder title up on your linkedin (set the start date to now) - ship something not terrible - contin…

Thank you for your insight.

I will not be going to any prestigious school. It's not in the cards for me.

I actually do own a SaaS along with my business partner. I'm not the founder, but we bought the platform from the founders who were looking to bail. It's a logistics company that is used by mainly bike messengers. 20+ companies around the world use it.

I would say I've shipped a few non-terrible things so far. I built an application that runs on a POS kiosk that kids scan their little IDs on when they are tardy to class. It's in a few dozen schools in the LA area.

I do have a pretty interesting resume. It has caught the eyes of people, but it takes someone who had an unconventional history like myself to appreciate it.

I haven't submitted a job application in over a year. I just haven't seen the point of it given the market. I'm also not interested in FAANG at all. This would be more of a future proofing move.

Re: Ask HN: CS degrees, do they matter again?

#54

Post by platevoltage »

tibbar wrote: post #50

> Is this a bad idea? Is this a good idea? Is this necessary if I want to be employable in the future? I wish anyone could really tell you. I mean, I sure don't know, and I've been a hiring manager in SF for years. I've done countless interviews, read countless resumes, all that. I can tell you what I would do if I were trying to bootstrap my way into the industry, though: 1. Do something difficult and unusual in tec…

Thank you. I'm not really looking for a job at the moment, I'm just having what is maybe an irrational fear of being made obsolete. I've hit the point of no return. I've been out of the automotive game for a while now, and I think I might rather die than go back to that.

Maybe I've done too much doomscrolling on Linked In.

Re: Ask HN: CS degrees, do they matter again?

#55

Post by platevoltage »

SoftTalker wrote: post #49

Startups may be less picky. If you want to work in startups it's probably more important to get involved in startup networks. I can't really say more than that as I don't work in startups. For many other software jobs, a degree will be required. This is an applicant filter if nothing else. These places (banks, insurance companies, manufacturers, any number of business where software enables what they do but is not th…

Exactly what I'm thinking right now. Thank's for sharing.

Re: Ask HN: CS degrees, do they matter again?

#56

Post by dinkumthinkum »

hayst4ck wrote: post #39
platevoltage wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. no. My CS fundamentals could always use work, but I know enough to know how to improve them on my own if and when I need to. 2. yes. this could just be my cynicism talking though. I'm not looking at any unaccredited program. I already have one of those under my belt.

There are things you know, things you don't know, and things you don't know you don't know. College is pretty good about the last category, but really if you went through syllabi, scanned through lecture notes, and paged through the reading materials listed, you're probably ahead of most students in that category. That exercise alone will probably give you a good idea of the technical value of the education. I would…

Even for someone with a degree in philosophy I think the last couple paragraphs are over-thinking things a lot here. I have never heard university described that way. The Rumsfeld thing about "unknowns unknowns" is clever I guess. :)

Re: Ask HN: CS degrees, do they matter again?

#57

Post by platevoltage »

murderfs wrote: post #40
hayst4ck wrote: post #24

As someone who has interviewed candidates for a FANG company in the distant past I can't say that degrees matter, but I can say that people I interviewed with degrees generally did better. There's a hidden bias in that this is only people who got through recruiters and recruiters are their own filter. Strong referrals usually guaranteed a phone screens. I think previous experience at a major competitor in the same ti…

> Many of the best co-workers that I remember had physics degrees. In fact, it was so pronounced I personally consider a physics degree to be a top tier signal of programming ability, but that's my own personal prejudice. You're basically just using it as a proxy for general intelligence, the _average_ physics major's IQ is around 130.

Yep. IMO that's the way ANY degree is looked at (aside from Medical, Law, etc.. you know the drill).

You want a lower level administrative job? You better have a degree so we know that you're not stupid. Now you get to pay off your loans with 20 bucks an hour.

Re: Ask HN: CS degrees, do they matter again?

#58

Post by somenameforme »

platevoltage wrote: post #42
caseyy wrote: post #34

In the AAA games industry, a portfolio speaks much louder than a degree. Junior software engineers with five simple, well-coded games (such as Asteroids, Lunar Lander, etc) on GitHub stand head and shoulders above people fresh out of university without a portfolio in the recruitment process. Senior software engineers with experience developing large AAA titles are in much higher demand than those with a PhD in game s…

Makes sense. Thank you for sharing your experience. I'm involved in several projects, as well as being the sole developer for a SaaS that I co-own (I make exactly 0 dollars from it right now). I have to solve all kinds of difficult problems, which excites me to no end. I can see how I could have the same demoralizing experience you did. In my bootcamp, I got a D on my portfolio because I didn't follow directions. I'v…

Similar experience here but slightly different as I went to a top tier uni, but was also a decent coder before I started college. There was a lot of 'theory vs practice' snobbery where the former was emphasized above all, to the point of absurdity. Get ready to learn the secret knowledge of academia CS like that that functional languages are secretly the solution to everything - especially purely functional - no variables or even mutable state. And of course the secret to writing bug proof programs is to mathematically prove them - just ignore the fact you're simply kicking the can to new bugs, and the domain of programs you can realistically prove is minuscule. I would not hire 95% of my graduating peers. You're not going to enjoy your time.

If you were going to get a degree I'd get it in something where computer science is applied rather than the 'thing' itself - e.g. electrical engineering (or even aerospace depending on your mathiness). Also that's probably far more future proofed than a CS degree anyhow, and will get your feet in the door for degree requirements as well as open the door to lots of options that a CS degree wouldn't.

Re: Ask HN: CS degrees, do they matter again?

#59

Post by caseyy »

hayst4ck wrote: post #24

As someone who has interviewed candidates for a FANG company in the distant past I can't say that degrees matter, but I can say that people I interviewed with degrees generally did better. There's a hidden bias in that this is only people who got through recruiters and recruiters are their own filter. Strong referrals usually guaranteed a phone screens. I think previous experience at a major competitor in the same ti…

> Many of the best co-workers that I remember had physics degrees. In fact, it was so pronounced I personally consider a physics degree to be a top tier signal of programming ability, but that's my own personal prejudice.

Hah, I also noticed that. For some reason, ex-army programmers really excel in their junior years (or sometimes even just months), too. Do you think it's the attitude towards problem-solving?

Re: Ask HN: CS degrees, do they matter again?

#60

Post by dinkumthinkum »

candiddevmike wrote: post #4

As soon as you've gotten your first job, degrees cease to matter for the most part until you start pursuing non-technical tracks IMO. There are some jobs that have bachelor requirements due to some weird contractual or government need though.

I don't know; there is the issue of when you try to find your next job that is not a straight continuation of your last. Without a CS degree if your first job is like a front-end ReactJS worker-bee then all you have told your potential next employer is that you can do what Figma's AI can do, just for more money. I agree that as you gain experience, the significance of the degree is lessened by the wait of your experience but if you took your same resume and deleted the education section, and never mentioned it in interviews, I think there would be some difference in outcomes.
Post reply on HN