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ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

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Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#811

Post by koolba »

shadowgovt wrote: post #764
koolba wrote: post #705

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Here's an interesting question: are undocumented immigrants actually stopping non-citizens from becoming citizens? These two things are actually quite independent, yes? You're building a very similar argument to "piracy is bad because it takes money out of the hands of the RIAA." So in your analogy the RIAA are the huddled masses yearning to breathe free that respect immigration laws?

In your analogy, are undocumented immigrants not the huddled masses yearning to breathe free?

Of course. But they’re supposed to arrive at ports of entry and follow the process.

While it has no legal significance, that poem is written on base of the Statue of Liberty next to the immigration center at Ellis Island. It’s a pretty wild take to think that it’s means that people should cut down barbed wire fences and sneak into the country under the cover of darkness.

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#812

Post by JumpCrisscross »

shadowgovt wrote: post #802
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #600

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> hard and complex problems require hard and complex solutions There's actually a simple solution to illegal immigration: go after the employers. We don't because we want to have our cake and eat it too. (Same reason these raids aren't happening on farms in red states.)

That one is also hard and complex in the sense that it will force the country to come to terms with how much of its economy is based on ignoring its own laws and an incoherent concept of fairness. In a democracy, getting people to accept pain (in this case, higher prices) to write a moral error that they generally experience only in the abstract is known hard; it's one of the reasons America clung to slavery so long,…

> That one is also hard and complex

It’s hard. Not complex. Simple and difficult.

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#813

Post by switch007 »

harvey9 wrote: post #224
switch007 wrote: post #34

The value of citizenship is being eroded each year, with governments increasingly keen to strip people of citizenship [0]. First they came for the terrorists, then they came for the dual citizenship lesser criminals. We're getting a glimpse of who's next. The Dutch government wanted to strip citizenship from people convicted of a crime with an "antisemitic element" https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/apr/26/how-id…

"First they came for the terrorists," Probably the least thoughtful appropriation of Niemöller's speech I've ever seen.

Perhaps you had something constructive to add to the discussion?

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#814

Post by shadowgovt »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #812
shadowgovt wrote: post #802

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That one is also hard and complex in the sense that it will force the country to come to terms with how much of its economy is based on ignoring its own laws and an incoherent concept of fairness. In a democracy, getting people to accept pain (in this case, higher prices) to write a moral error that they generally experience only in the abstract is known hard; it's one of the reasons America clung to slavery so long,…

> That one is also hard and complex It’s hard. Not complex. Simple and difficult.

"Complex" because we'll discover things the under-protected labor are enabling that we have come to rely upon.

Infrastructure becoming unreliable makes complexity, and undocumented immigrant labor is American infrastructure. Has been for decades.

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#815

Post by tremon »

SpicyLemonZest wrote: post #371
nharada wrote: post #314

Feels like this conversation is full of people getting hung up on arguing the technicalities and exact phrasing of this situation. Is that really important to the broader conversation?

The broader conversation is impossible to have. “What policies do we need to ensure due process without compromising the effectiveness of immigration enforcement?” Even trying to start the conversation feels like a troll, because when the system looks like it does today who’s going to concede the premise that immigration enforcement shouldn’t be compromised?

You're starting from an unverified assumption (the presumed ineffectiveness of immigration enforcement), that's maybe why it feels off to you. How is it ineffective, and why? Once you have answers to that, you can start the conversation about policy.

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#816

Post by s1artibartfast »

int_19h wrote: post #774
s1artibartfast wrote: post #688

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you think restriction of immigration is a case of nonsensical or outright evil law? Do you think law abiding deportation of illegal immigrants is morally justified in concept? no matter where you land on this, it stands that division on the topic is a top point of conflict in the US. I dont think either side claiming to be above the law helps move society in a more productive direction >Respect for law, like any o…

You posit a false dichotomy here. The law isn't just about what is prohibited, but also about what the consequences are, and how it is enforced. One doesn't need to believe that e.g. stealing should be legal to oppose on moral grounds a law that says thieves get the death penalty. Let me ask you directly: do you believe that people who smuggled away slaves into freedom, back when US had legalized slavery on large par…

Im not sure how to continue the conversation in a productive manner if you are withholding key information about your stance.

You refuse to answer my questions, but I will answer yours. Of course not, I don't think smuggling slaves was wrong.

I still hold that refusal to respect the law is incredibly divisive and leads to social conflict and destruction. In the case of the US, it led to the most deadly and destructive war in American history.

When you give up on settling issues with the law, you move to settling them with brute force. I dont think this is a positive direction.

I will ask one last time: Do you think restriction of immigration is a case of nonsensical or outright evil law? Do you think law abiding deportation of illegal immigrants is morally justified in concept?

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#817

Post by s1artibartfast »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #639
nharada wrote: post #314

Feels like this conversation is full of people getting hung up on arguing the technicalities and exact phrasing of this situation. Is that really important to the broader conversation?

> Is that really important to the broader conversation? Habeas corpus predates the Magna Carta [1]. A U.S. citizen's right to habeas has been wilfully abrogated by the state. If this stands, I'm absolutely for taking all the pardoned January 6th nutters and sticking them in Guantanamo or wherever come 2028 or 2032. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Habeas_corpus#Origins_in_Engla...

Classic becoming the thing which you hate.

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#818

Post by 1659447091 »

AustinDev wrote: post #768
1659447091 wrote: post #713

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> On the legal immigration side cancel all non-tourist visa types and let existing visas expire. You're saying you want to remove immigration visa's from the Spouse of a US Citizen? A US Citizen's intercountry adopted orphaned child, and immediate relatives (like a parent) of said US citizens? I mean trumps parent-in-laws already took advantage of that on their way to being naturalized, so Im sure he'd be good gettin…

Sure, Spousal visas make sense. No prob. I also said that there needs to be a seasonal farm work visa. It was an off the cuff framework but yes, those things make sense. Your derision is not really that becoming.

> I also said that there needs to be a seasonal farm work visa.

That's the issue with current leadership and your chain of thinking on an issue with only a passing broad assumption of the domain. A large enough portion of the population has been convinced that drastic change needs to happen. Now when a wreaking ball attacks a component of a larger machine, people say good it wasn't needed, look the machine is still working, I mean it's sputtering and smoking but working, give it time - then ignore it and move on to wreaking something else. The problem is wanting this drastic change without even understanding what is being wreaked in the first place or trying to understand why it's there.

I specifically said H-2A. There doesn't need to be seasonal farm work visa's added to your idea. We already have them.

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#819

Post by JumpCrisscross »

s1artibartfast wrote: post #817
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #639

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Is that really important to the broader conversation? Habeas corpus predates the Magna Carta [1]. A U.S. citizen's right to habeas has been wilfully abrogated by the state. If this stands, I'm absolutely for taking all the pardoned January 6th nutters and sticking them in Guantanamo or wherever come 2028 or 2032. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Habeas_corpus#Origins_in_Engla...

Classic becoming the thing which you hate.

> becoming the thing which you hate

More an honest reading of the history of power. If one side seizes a previously norms-gated tactic and is allowed to use it, the other side either seizes it, too, or ceases to exist. (Obviously, the preferred outcome is this is not allowed to stand.)

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#820

Post by cryptoegorophy »

gehwartzen wrote: post #783
cryptoegorophy wrote: post #441

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What’s the conversation? Separating kids from parents or deporting them with parents because we don’t want them to be separate? There is no question about breaking the law by parents. Question is do you let children be with their mothers(who apparently asked to do so) or no. As someone who came legally to Canada and went through thorough screening of 4 years before coming I just don’t get how people are ok with “chea…

I came to this country as an immigrant and gained my citizenship while going through the appropriate legal channels. I have zero fear of being rounded up in the current political climate. The reason? I’m a white guy from Germany. The entire process was easy for me. No one ever questions where I’m from because I’m white, have a white collar job, and speak fluent English. That seems enough to be enough for any fellow A…

Why was that woman being deported? I don’t think it was because of the color of her skin but she broke certain laws from what I’ve read. Don’t break laws and you would be fine. Problem before was that breaking laws went unpunished.
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