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ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

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Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#791

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These are all things that sound great to a religious listener of Ezra Klein’s podcast but normal people either don’t know about them, don’t care about them, or disagree with them.

I don’t think we should make policy specifically to cater to the part of a voting constituency (the willingly ignorant) who doesn’t know about the factual benefits of a large incoming immigration policy. Policy should be made to cater to factual objective reality, not to make people feel better. Ezra Klein isn’t for the unwashed masses. He’s not even interesting to the average Democrat. His content is specifically fo…

> I don’t think we should make policy specifically to cater to the part of a voting constituency (the willingly ignorant)

The voters are free to vote for whoever they want for any reason. The burden is on the candidates to win them over.

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#792

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I strongly disagree with your framing. Yes, policies can have unintended consequences and immigration policy in particular is a minefield of obvious solutions having terrible results... But that's not what we're talking about. When OP says "I was for wide-scale deportations until I saw people I like being deported", it's not a case of unintended consequences, it's a case of "When I voted for the leopard party I didn'…

> When I voted for the leopard party I didn't think the leopards would eat the faces of people I like This isn't a good-faith interpretation of their comment. There are plenty of illegal immigrants with a criminal record. Trump's pitch was to deport them. There was also a pitch that strongly hinted at deporting basically anyone who isn't white, and I think this appealed to the racist fifth of Americans [1], but plent…

> There are plenty of illegal immigrants with a criminal record.

Assuming that all the people who will be negatively impacted by a blanket policy will be criminals is also a failure of empathy.

Trump explicitly, repeatedly said he would deport all undocumented immigrants. That explicitly means migrants without a criminal record. Yes, he sometimes claimed that most of them were bad or criminals or eating pets, but believing that isn't a failure of epistemology! Trump didn't craft some deviously clever lie here, he just said a bunch of bullshit and people bought it because they needed a bogeyman.

As sibling comments point out, the reason these "Oh, we didn't know!" excuses from Trump voters ring hollow is that given a choice, they'd still vote for him today. They'll still vote Republican next election, the primaries will still pick the most Trump-like candidate for the party. Nothing was learned.

Because learning anything would require admitting that, yes, Trump's lies were extremely easy to see through, yes, any blanket measures against immigrants will also hurt the "good ones", and yes, Trump voters are morally responsible for the things Trump does.

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#793

Earlier quoted context omitted.

E was what the Democrats have offered and it lost them the last election

E was what notable bleeding heart… Ronald Reagan chose during his time in office. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_Reform_and_Contr...

And there was a time when the democratic party was lukewarm on civil rights but neither of those things were influential in the 2024 election.

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#794
post #762

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Remember Willem van Spronsen? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_Tacoma_immigration_detent...

His daughter I can only imagine how full of grief she was to learn that her dad suicided in such a wasteful way. Love, and hope will defeat facism

It took the development of the most ghastly weapons to have ever graced this Earth and multiple meat grinder war fronts to defeat fascism last time.

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#795
post #763

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The assumption of "good intentions" is not really warranted at this point. This movement is mainly driven by people who feel they have been marginalized by our society, and they want to lash out and see other people get hurt, period. Regardless of the ways they have been marginalized, and how much marginalization they have done to themselves by failing to engage with the complexity of the world and following maliciou…

> This movement is mainly driven by people who feel they have been marginalized by our society, and they want to lash out and see other people get hurt, Yes. This. This is what drives facism: It is not your fault you feel bad, it's them, over there This is why it is so important to "cuddle a facist". Facism feeds on violence, showing love and compassion to those whom you disagree with robs fascism of its oxygen

Fascists think your love and compassion are foolish weaknesses that should be mocked.

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#796

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The jobs that don't require a delicate hand are to a large degree already automated. But the robots are not up to the delicate stuff.

>But the robots are not up to the delicate stuff. Robots did my dad's knee replacement surgery. I don't think this argument holds water anymore. Maybe if you make your claim more precise: delicate + scale. But, if that's the case, the scale problem is solved with money.

Robots? Or a human doctor that controlled it?

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#797

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The phrase "solely one of birthright" suggests the diminishment of the citizenship of certain people. That is not how citizenship works: no one is less of a citizen than anyone else. The most objectionable part here — by far — is not the deportation of the parents, but the deportation of citizens and the lack of due process. The alternative being proposed is that if ICE is going to deport the parents of US citizen ch…

US hospitals do not have magical pixie dust to grant US citizenship. This is why birthright as a legal concept is a diminishment of citizenship for all those who hold it. Parents pass on the shared history, values, and national culture to their kids. Parents are those who give value to US citizenship. Not coming out of a belly, that happens to be inside a US hospital.

As a birthright citizen I think my parents did a whole lot better than yours at instilling American values.

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#798

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> in order to sway voter demographics in their favour [citation needed]

Try commonsense. Politicians trying to improve their electoral prospects is not fringe conspiracy theory.

That's not a citation.

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#799

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every day across the world thousands of people are removed from countries around the world for violating immigration laws. Except in cases of where it coincided with criminality, it's always going to be very ugly, because it means somebody had built up a life for themselves somewhere and that is now ended due to them having been born in a different place and then overstayed their permission, or never received such, t…

The phrase "solely one of birthright" suggests the diminishment of the citizenship of certain people. That is not how citizenship works: no one is less of a citizen than anyone else. The most objectionable part here — by far — is not the deportation of the parents, but the deportation of citizens and the lack of due process. The alternative being proposed is that if ICE is going to deport the parents of US citizen ch…

In this case it's clear that the children were not literally deported. The parents were given the choice of taking their children with them, or leaving them with social services, and they did what any half decent parent would do. So they ended up given a "free flight" on a plane full of people being deported, which blurs the difference - but it's obviously there. The issue is that the parents were not granted access to legal counsel, though that's a consequence of expedited removal [1], which dates back to Clinton.

I think this issue mostly emphasizes the highly unpleasant issues that unrestricted bithright citizenship causes. There's a reason literally no other advanced economy, besides Canada, has maintained such a thing. [1] And Canada is probably the outlier there due to being geographically protected from illegal immigration. Even if somebody e.g. boats over to North America, they're going to be much more likely to head towards the US than Canada.

I say maintained because it's self evident that birthright citizenship would have been a given in the times before big government, if not only because it couldn't not be a given. But basically everywhere desirable started getting rid of it once it started being abused. The entry on Ireland, the last country in Europe to eliminate unrestricted birthright citizenship, is interesting:

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On 1 January 2005, the law was amended to require that at least one of the parents be an Irish citizen; a British citizen; a resident with a permanent right to reside in Ireland or in Northern Ireland; or a legal resident residing three of the last four years in the country (excluding students and asylum seekers) (see Irish nationality law).[64] The amendment was prompted by the case of Man Chen, a Chinese woman living in mainland United Kingdom who traveled to Belfast (Northern Ireland, part of the UK) to give birth in order to benefit from the previous rule whereby anyone born on any part of the island of Ireland was automatically granted Irish citizenship. The Chinese parents used their daughter's Irish (and thereby European Union) citizenship to obtain permanent residence in the UK as parents of a dependent EU citizen. Ireland was the last country in Europe to abolish unrestricted jus soli. (see Irish nationality law).[107]

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[1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expedited_removal

[2] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jus_soli#

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#800
post #710

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rights imply an obligation. What we're doing right now isn't working, isn't sustainable, and ignores several realities of how we interact with our neighboring nations (and, indeed, is a new problem... The current tight-border regime isn't even half a century old). At what point do we decide that if the laws are broken that often, perhaps it's because they're bad laws that are too incompatible with reality to be pract…

> What we're doing right now isn't working, isn't sustainable, and ignores several realities of how we interact with our neighboring nations (and, indeed, is a new problem... The current tight-border regime isn't even half a century old). The problem with this argument is it’s downstream from a self fulfilling prophesy derived from the previous administration’s refusal to enforce the law. Illegal border crossings are…

The medicine is not worth the cure. While illegal border crossings are down, it's because all border crossings are down... People have become legitimately fearful outside this country that visiting this country, even as our guests legally, could result in a long stay in detention with no due process. The damage this administration is doing to America's international reputation Is by no means worth lower border crossing numbers. It's the equivalent of keeping rowdy teenagers off your property by waving a shotgun at them... It works, but now your neighbors know you is the crazy shotgun toting guy at the edge of town and they avoid you.

Pax Americana is built on a web of trust that includes the notion that America is a welcoming nation. I think it's going to take economists some time to calculate the full magnitude of the damage that closing up the borders will do to America's ability to realize all of its interests. Where are we going to get the next generation of innovators and creators of scientific breakthroughs when people stop showing up at our universities because we are capriciously kicking them out? How are the communities who were bothered or scared of undocumented immigrants going to fair when tourists stop showing up?

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