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ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

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Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#731

Post by [deleted] »

Waterluvian wrote: post #377
whoknowsidont wrote: post #351

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When you're a sheltered suburbanite nerd (yeah, even the "rural" ones) who will never have to truly worry about being in this situation, this is just an exciting news story to squabble over and smugly flounder about on your keyboard. Deplorable.

I feel more disgusted by the Americans who know this is wrong but do nothing. I have no patience for evil people, but the truly damned are all the Americans who know and sense better but do not or cannot act properly. If deporting U.S. CITIZEN CHILDREN does not send you to the streets with fire and fury, you are well and truly lost. So much damn talk over the decades I've been alive about patriotism and liberty from…

[deleted]

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#732

Post by LorenPechtel »

bee_rider wrote: post #667
hsuduebc2 wrote: post #347

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can someone who down voted this comment please explain why? Is this because you do not agree with his general stance or because it simplifies and doesn't contribute to the debate?

“End Jus Soli” would require a constitutional amendment and would be universally opposed by at least one party. So, it is bringing the conversation in the direction of ridiculous out-there topics.

And it can cause headaches with people being stateless because neither the country of their parents nor the country of their birth recognizes them. And that's something that's normally prohibited by treaty: you can't take an action that will render someone stateless.

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#733

Post by samlinnfer »

otde wrote: post #647
samlinnfer wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Instead of processing immigration applications fairly for everyone, we just should let people who break the rules get away with it? Having deportation as an actual threat, reduces the amount of people who attempt to break the rules since they know there are consequences.

Why does the consequence have to be deportation? Can we imagine a form of deterrence that doesn’t necessitate the cruelty of familial separation? Do we at least agree that what is happening right now , to this family and to others, is deeply unjust?

You can do what Australia does which is offshore processing

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#734

Post by LorenPechtel »

Der_Einzige wrote: post #595
darksaints wrote: post #467

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I sincerely hope people like you get sent to a Salvadoran torture gulag the next time you drive over the speed limit. Because we absolutely understand no circumstances can afford a breakdown in the rule of law.

I’m so tired of how when fascists operate in the open, the attempt to throw back their rhetoric to them is always perceived as “weak”, “beta”, and incompetent from the public at large. Feels like some SCP object of right wing reaction exists in this country. There’s never any kind of “extreme” movement designed to stamp this shit out in the USA. It ends up being kids wearing red who have never done pushups or other h…

Think you could clarify? I can't figure out which side you're objecting to.

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#735

Post by digitaltrees »

remarkEon wrote: post #697
digitaltrees wrote: post #692

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Define grim? Surging stock market, reduced inflation? 4% of the global population producing 75% of Nobel prizes ( half of which are immigrants), robust high tech manufacturing? Robust agriculture that was recovered from the first round of tariffs? Increased housing stock stabilizing prices? The Chips act and infrastructure bill that would have accelerated strategic manufacturing growth? Clean energy investments that…

These are all things that sound great to a religious listener of Ezra Klein’s podcast but normal people either don’t know about them, don’t care about them, or disagree with them.

Facts have a bias.

Don’t have a counter argument?

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#736

Post by LorenPechtel »

morkalork wrote: post #288
scarface_74 wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And while trying to meet those numbers, they are being specifically told not to do mass raids of farms and other business in red states that will hurt Trump voters

Also, businesses caught employing illegal immigrants seemingly don't face any punishment either. Migrants wouldn't enter the US illegally if they couldn't find employment, and they wouldn't find employment if businesses were harshly punished. As it is, everyone is incentivized to keep this cat and mouse game going.

The problem is one of documentation. Our system does not provide an adequate means of identifying those of legal status--and I think that's actually a good thing because the illegals would work under stolen identities rather than fake identities. Worse for those whose identity gets stolen (my mother had a long battle with the IRS over this--the IRS insisted that it was her responsibility to get her "employer" to fix her W2. The employer that she had never even heard of and couldn't locate. With the hindsight of the internet I suspect she should have filed the form to amend a W2, but this was before the internet.)

And our work permit documentation is remarkably easy to fake and tricky for an employer to even verify. Consider: foreign passport. Social security card marked "not valid for employment". Letter from the Immigration department giving temporary work permission. Legal? Yes, that was my wife while we were going through the green card process.

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#737

Post by remarkEon »

thephyber wrote: post #724
remarkEon wrote: post #697

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These are all things that sound great to a religious listener of Ezra Klein’s podcast but normal people either don’t know about them, don’t care about them, or disagree with them.

I don’t think we should make policy specifically to cater to the part of a voting constituency (the willingly ignorant) who doesn’t know about the factual benefits of a large incoming immigration policy. Policy should be made to cater to factual objective reality, not to make people feel better. Ezra Klein isn’t for the unwashed masses. He’s not even interesting to the average Democrat. His content is specifically fo…

Well, I agree with you (sort of), but democracy lacks a solution for this problem (ignorant people existing and voting). Unless you are going to give everyone an IQ test before they register to vote or some other means to test some "eligibility" dimension it doesn't seem solvable, since those options are non-starters in western democracies.

>The problem with immigration is that we need it (just to maintain replacement rates and economic growth), but the average American voter says they don’t want it.

What would be helpful here is if people who state this so plainly as a matter of fact actually took the time to interrogate why they think that way. I don't think this statement is true, quite the opposite. You are sort of hinting at the real problem in your parenthetical, not sure if you were intentional in that regard. One should probably determine why the birthrate in a particular nation is below replacement before concluding that the only solution is "infinity immigration". Moreover, economic growth is not the end-all-be-all of a country, since these are places with history and a people in them and not a "special economic zone" there the only reason anyone lives there is to conduct economic activity.

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#738

Post by thephyber »

kcplate wrote: post #695
bodiekane wrote: post #463

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> just don’t get how people are ok with “cheaters” gaming the system. This is a story about citizens being deported without due process, without access to lawyers, without access to healthcare. You don't have to be "ok with cheaters" to still want those people to have basic human rights and to see the system have legitimate judicial review. The punishment here is far worse than the crime, and it's directed at childre…

[flagged]

> this is a story that really attempts to justify the use of birthright citizenship to create chain immigration …

*Which is the current law of the land.* The existing jurisprudence states that all people born on US land (with the exception of some foreign diplomat children) are US citizens.

The ACLU is arguing to maintain the existing, settled law. Attempts to undo birthright citizenship need to argue how they think it should work and why they think it should be changed without a Constitutional amendment.

Yes, obviously the ACLU will pick a case that has good optics for them. That is how EVERY special interest tries to bring their preferred case up the appeals chain towards SCOTUS. We aren’t ignorant of that. That’s pan outgrowth of the fact that the US court system is adversarial.

Here’s a fun thought experiment: if birthright citizenship requires additional requirements (I think the Trump admin claims it should also require at least 1 parent be a US citizenship at the time of the birth in the USA), does the citizenship rollback apply retroactively? Does it retroactively apply to all generations going back to the founding of the country? Does it go back even further?

Scarier thought experiment: Has any country ever tried to remove citizenship from tens or hundreds of millions of citizens? How do we “deport” people who have known no other country as home and have no paperwork in any other country?

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#739

Post by LorenPechtel »

whimsicalism wrote: post #205
hartator wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, nothing much changed law-wise. No due process at the borders is a shame both now and before, but hopefully this time there is a willingness to change things. Probably not at the next swing of power.

It is genuinely an extremely difficult challenge to manage illegal crossings if every individual must be processed through the full U.S. legal system which has massive resourcing and backlog problems (3m+ cases). Voters across the political spectrum have made it unmistakably clear — in poll after poll — that they are deeply dissatisfied with the current rate of illegal and asylum-seeking entries. Is there a morally p…

Something to consider: The Republicans have *deliberately* starved the system as a means of delaying granting asylum. They caused the problem!

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#740

Post by LorenPechtel »

unethical_ban wrote: post #341
whimsicalism wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is genuinely an extremely difficult challenge to manage illegal crossings if every individual must be processed through the full U.S. legal system which has massive resourcing and backlog problems (3m+ cases). Voters across the political spectrum have made it unmistakably clear — in poll after poll — that they are deeply dissatisfied with the current rate of illegal and asylum-seeking entries. Is there a morally p…

Admit that the current and past efforts to keep people out and quickly deport people failed. And then set up reliable systems of verifying people's citizenship before they can get a job and quickly deport those who should be deported. Make it easier to work here legally in the US like it used to be in the 90s, and threaten CEOs with jail time if their companies have a pattern of hiring ineligible workers. And let's b…

Rampant identity theft. And if you try to hold them accountable you'll make legal immigrants unable to get a job.

Until we have identity theft under control strict checks on employers are a bad idea.

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