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ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

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Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#501

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Americans don’t trust the press. A lot of these technicalities are parsing “what did the press actually say” which is the first step in dealing with an untrustworthy source of truth.

The distrust of the press has been cultivated intentionally. A POTUS saying "What you're seeing and what you're reading is not what's happening" would have been seen too farcical for a comedy. And yet here we are.

When you read article after article that imply one thing, but actually say something else, how should we respond?

Parsing out what the article says is necessary.

It’s how articles are written, and how reporters and editors ask they be read.

“John Doe committed a terrible crime, the FBI said” does not mean the press is reporting the John Doe committed a terrible crime.

I wish the press would respond to cultivated mistrust by committing to high standards, but they have not.

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#502
post #397

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Our legal system has always depended on vibes to mitigate technically correct unjust or catastrophic outcomes. It's broadly labelled "prosecutorial discretion", and operates at every level of the justice system. IMHO, it's essential.

Prosecutorial discretion hasn’t meant much to me since the Bond got prosecuted for violating a chemical weapons treaty, and Yates got prosecuted for fish-shredding. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bond_v._United_States_(2014) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yates_v._United_States_(2015...

Every system fails sometimes. The only interesting question is whether it is systemic or not.

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#503

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Americans don’t trust the press. A lot of these technicalities are parsing “what did the press actually say” which is the first step in dealing with an untrustworthy source of truth.

The distrust of the press has been cultivated intentionally. A POTUS saying "What you're seeing and what you're reading is not what's happening" would have been seen too farcical for a comedy. And yet here we are.

The ‘press’ has been clear bullshit (for me) since Gulf War 1.

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#504

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The phrase "solely one of birthright" suggests the diminishment of the citizenship of certain people. That is not how citizenship works: no one is less of a citizen than anyone else. The most objectionable part here — by far — is not the deportation of the parents, but the deportation of citizens and the lack of due process. The alternative being proposed is that if ICE is going to deport the parents of US citizen ch…

US hospitals do not have magical pixie dust to grant US citizenship. This is why birthright as a legal concept is a diminishment of citizenship for all those who hold it. Parents pass on the shared history, values, and national culture to their kids. Parents are those who give value to US citizenship. Not coming out of a belly, that happens to be inside a US hospital.

Do you really believe this? I've never met anyone opposed to birthright citizenship for the US. Our shared history, values, and national culture are all about immigration so this isn't computing for me. Plus the law seems settled on this issue, or at least was before Trump 2.0. I genuinely don't understand how thinking people can support the current administration's policies on numerous issues. Tried going to r/conservative, watching Fox News, etc. but it hasn't helped much to date.

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#505

While the 3 minors are US citizens, their parents are not and the parents can be deported because they are in the country illegally. That means you have the following options: a) deport nobody, i.e. you don't apply the law b) deport just the parents. What do you do with the minor children? Separating them from their parents (different countries) would be cruel. c) deport the entire family, including the US minors. Si…

Maybe if your labor is exploited by a capitalist hiring you illegally you should be legalized instead of humiliated and your life destroyed with a possible death sentence in a concentration camp. Meanwhile all the money you paid into this system is repatriated among "good just legal" citizens like yourself.

You benefit from this monstrosity that takes advantage of people and leaves them destitute and you know it deep down. If yall support this don't ever delude yourself into thinking you're a good person.

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#508

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Managing mass incarceration and deportation is a difficult task however, and these people (both then and now) are not exactly competent at anything beyond bravado. The holocaust also required mass incarceration and deportation, except that the huge undertaking of deportation was towards death camps in occupied territories instead of some foreign land. On the first point above, I caution against thinking that it woul…

> be careful about calling evil people practicing evil ends incompetent. The Nazi were a mess, plagued with infighting, and completely incapable of measuring the strength of their opponents, which eventually led to their downfall. Incompetent evil people can still do a lot of harm until they screw up for good. This doesn't stop them being incompetent.

>The Nazi were a mess, plagued with infighting, and completely incapable of measuring the strength of their opponents, which eventually led to their downfall.

no the Nazis weren't entirely a mess or completely incompetent.

There was lots of infighting, partly deliberately designed to be that way by Hitler's tactics for organizing his own subordinate leadership levels, but there was also a massive amount of military, industrial and logistical competence and a robust amount of cohesion and careful, powerful cooperation on fundamental aims.

Had there not been, the Nazi's never would have risen to power so effectively, formed their dictatorship so effectively or managed a colossal war against multiple enemies for so many years so effectively, and only been defeated at such a gargantuan cost in lives and resources. The Nazis underestimated the military strength of their enemies, but not nearly so badly as to not wage very effective war and pose a very, very serious threat to these enemies for several years.

I really suggest a book called "The Wages of Destruction: the making and breaking of the Nazi Economy" by Adam Tooze, as a nice basic primer on how wrong these ideas of supposedly incompetent Nazis are.

The above is all deviating a bit from the topic at hand but with this sidestep into a look at the Nazis, you're working from a simplistic caricature view of a more complex situation with complex evil people, and I fear that this is also all too common when many critics today view the Trump government. It's not staffed entirely by caricaturesque evil idiots. Many of its supporters are intelligent and cohesive in their guiding methodologies. (Also, no, the above isn't to compare the bad actions of Trump's government to the completely unrestrained monstrosities of the Nazis. I'm comparing defects of external analysis)

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#510
post #299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sentencing children to die as they can't receive proper medical care when deported is not in any way the best solution. Unless of course your lack empathy and de-humanize people by calling them "aliens".

[flagged]

The Nazis were also just being pragmatic.
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