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ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

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Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#291

Post by beloch »

Let's do a time warp.

It's 2018. Children are being separated from their parents and kept in cages[1]. It's really important to notice that the pictures in this article are not from reporters, leaks or anything of the sort. They were released by Customs and Border Protection and, no doubt, make things look better than they were.

What has changed since Trump's first term? Yes, there is now a stronger sensitivity to separating children from their parents, among the public at least. One solution is to simply deport child citizens along with non-citizen parents and claim it was by choice.

What solutions are we not seeing in the media though? How many photos are being published about conditions in ICE facilities, Guantanamo bay, etc.? What's going on that we just don't know about this time? If some judge ordered the release of photos of current conditions in ICE facilities, they'd be ignored or even charged with some made-up crime.

I see a lot of people here trying to reason this away, but it's going to be worse than last time and, eventually, the truth will get out. I know it's tough to care about this while Trump is simultaneously tanking the stock market, waging trade wars, threatening multiple countries with invasion or annexation, etc.. That is by design. Even Americans who cannot spare any sympathy for immigrants need to make the time to care about how their government is treating American children.

[1]https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-44518942

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#292

Post by tomrod »

whimsicalism wrote: post #249
tomrod wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Repeating a bit, but we already do this between states in the US and in the EU, so clearly it can work in practice.

Because voters decided there was a common interest, cultural identity, etc. and mutually agreed on political integration. Voters clearly do not want a unified Americas. The purpose of a Republic is to be a stable entity that ensures the welfare of its citizens. It is not to have a single-minded obsession with global welfare at the expense of its own sustainability or the desires of its citizens.

> voters decided there was a common interest, cultural identity, etc. and mutually agreed on political integration.

I'm less confident that this was performed in either location due to direct democracy, and more because it made political sense and was expedient at the time that these locale enacted the governance structure.

In other words, it's not a one-and-done-forever type discussion, and things (clearly) evolve over time.

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#293

Post by tartieret »

llm_nerd wrote: post #39
globalnode wrote: post #6

theyve started arresting judges too, rip.

Bondi -- an outrageously partisan hack who is destroying the DOJ -- reached peak irony when she stated that "no one is above the law" in talking about that case. Donald Trump and his administration are on an absolute crime spree[1]. Insider trading, launching shit-coins and engaging in self-dealing, completely disregarding both the constitution and the courts, up to and including the Supreme Court. The US is currentl…

I absolutely love your summary

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#294

Post by s1artibartfast »

paulryanrogers wrote: post #243
bee_rider wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What’s the non-extreme option, if the plan is to kick out the non-citizen parents of US citizen children?

Delay deporting the non-citizen parent at least until the citizen children have reasonable accomodations to remain in the country? "The plan" isn't sacred. Humans rights are sacred.

[flagged]

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#295

Post by mgkimsal »

tastyfreeze wrote: post #182
retzkek wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And then, what? Are citizens beating down the doors to do these jobs but getting out-competed by migrants? Are these the same citizens who are lining up to do sweatshop labor when manufacturing “returns” to the US? If undocumented workers are finding productive work in an economy with low unemployment then the problem is that the government is not facilitating them gaining legal status.

The problem would be minimum wage and insurance requirements for employing citizens. There are plenty of citizens that would work those jobs but nobody would hire them because they cost too much. What you are arguing for is to continue allowing people to come here so employers can pay them less than a citizen is legally required to be paid. Once they become legal employers no longer want to employ them for the same r…

US citizens by and large don't want to go work in tobacco fields for $15/hr, in a state with $7/hr min wage. But mexican workers coming over legally, getting the work visas and all that... will.

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#296

Post by chasd00 »

Kim_Bruning wrote: post #257
gpm wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The mother and child were in custody, the father was not, and was prompt in acquiring legal counsel, arranging this, and suing, leading to exceptionally clear circumstances in this case. This is the docket for the lawsuit: https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/69940863/v-m-l-v-harper... The mother was also technically able to speak with the father, though monitored, for less than a minute, and they were interrupted wh…

> The mother was also technically able to speak with the father, though monitored, for less than a minute, and they were interrupted when the father attempted to give a number for the attorney to the mother. Based on your wording alone, would it be safe to say the mother was unable to avail herself of counsel before making a decision?

If the mother is not a us citizen is she entitled to counsel? Or entitled to anything else? Curious to know to what parts of US law apply to non citizens and what parts do not.

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#297

Post by chasd00 »

gpm wrote: post #282
Kim_Bruning wrote: post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The mother was also technically able to speak with the father, though monitored, for less than a minute, and they were interrupted when the father attempted to give a number for the attorney to the mother. Based on your wording alone, would it be safe to say the mother was unable to avail herself of counsel before making a decision?

To the extent that they let the mother make a decision, which is itself unclear, I would say all evidence points to that. We only really have the father's and judge's account of events here.

> We only really have the father's and judge's account of events here

Given that, then this whole thread is pointless. I just assumed people were more informed based on what they’re claiming.

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#298

Post by briffle »

pge wrote: post #93
clusterfook wrote: post #2

> But for interesting HN discussion... anyone got any juice on why this is happening. Is there orders going down the chain of command from the president to do this sort of thing. Was this behaviour always there but less reported before? Are they more emboldened by the current environment?

The current administration has set targets for numbers of people deported(which ICE is currently behind on). That creates an incentive to skip due process in order to get more people deported more quickly (and the awareness that there will no consequences for doing so probably contributes as well)

They are also trying to push for an end to birthright citizenship.

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#299

Post by lawn »

EasyMark wrote: post #264
sswatson wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The phrase "solely one of birthright" suggests the diminishment of the citizenship of certain people. That is not how citizenship works: no one is less of a citizen than anyone else. The most objectionable part here — by far — is not the deportation of the parents, but the deportation of citizens and the lack of due process. The alternative being proposed is that if ICE is going to deport the parents of US citizen ch…

I don't think it was meant to devalue their citizenship, but citizenship doesn't trump their safety or need to be with their parents. The parents are going to be deported for being here illegally, would you have the child be separated and put in a foster/community home? Emotions are important but the only pragmatic solution here is to deport all 3, if your nation's policy is deportation for being here illegally. I ag…

Sentencing children to die as they can't receive proper medical care when deported is not in any way the best solution.

Unless of course your lack empathy and de-humanize people by calling them "aliens".

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#300

Post by doctorpangloss »

clusterfook wrote: post #2

> But for interesting HN discussion... anyone got any juice on why this is happening. Is there orders going down the chain of command from the president to do this sort of thing. Was this behaviour always there but less reported before? Are they more emboldened by the current environment?

Previously with the family separation policy it was part of an aggressive campaign led by Stephen Miller personally. There are now a few more people who want to do this as much as he does, all in the administration. It was Trump who hired those people, and then it was Trump who rescinded family separations and fired Neilsen over it, because it made bad media. The public has a template for exactly how to stop it. All that said, this is what the Republican base wants.
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