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ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

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Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#491

Post by annexrichmond »

mikeyouse wrote: post #408
madcadmium wrote: post #363

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> by all metrics, immigrants are a net positive to society. What about wage suppression?

In study after study, immigrants actually raise the wages of citizen workers by taking the lower paying jobs while citizens can then be more productive. The idea they suppress wages is just another form of the ‘lump of labor’ fallacy. https://www.jstor.org/stable/41426727 https://www.dagliano.unimi.it/media/12-Ottaviano-Peri-2008.p...

You are really twisting things to make your argument sound plausible in the general case. More supply means less wages. Why focus on low paying jobs? Are you seriously suggesting that if we import every software engineer from India that wants to come here that my salary will increase? If so, that's very interesting why tech CEOs are lobbying so hard for this.

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#492

Post by sanderjd »

tastyfreeze wrote: post #182
retzkek wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And then, what? Are citizens beating down the doors to do these jobs but getting out-competed by migrants? Are these the same citizens who are lining up to do sweatshop labor when manufacturing “returns” to the US? If undocumented workers are finding productive work in an economy with low unemployment then the problem is that the government is not facilitating them gaining legal status.

The problem would be minimum wage and insurance requirements for employing citizens. There are plenty of citizens that would work those jobs but nobody would hire them because they cost too much. What you are arguing for is to continue allowing people to come here so employers can pay them less than a citizen is legally required to be paid. Once they become legal employers no longer want to employ them for the same r…

What I'm arguing for is to not let employers do that.

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#493

Post by bko »

tzs wrote: post #202
bko wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From Claude > According to a Migration Policy Institute report, the deportation system dramatically changed over the past 19 years - moving from a judicial system prior to 1996 where most people facing deportation had immigration court hearings, to a system during Obama's administration where 75 percent of people removed did not see a judge before being deported. You have to understand that most what you read about o…

That's about non-citizen immigrants. What does it have to do with deporting US citizens without due process?

Dishonest phrasing. The children were the US citizens. Parents were in US illegally. They deported the parents and their kids along with them. Should they go into foster care instead?

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#494

Post by righthand »

> No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

The states are responsible for providing equal protection of the laws to everyone here. The states need to stand up and fight ICE.

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#495

Post by mystraline »

NewJazz wrote: post #328
ashoeafoot wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

They wouldn't let these kids have toothpaste the last time they did this.

Yes, and that was with Obama and 'children in cages'.

Trump is only turning the screws that were firmly installed by all previous presidents and congresses. The only real shock to this immigration action is the blitzkrieg of immediacy, horror, and flaunting violating court orders.

Courts don't have police to enforce judgements. The executive branch does. Hard to enforce finger-wagging. (And well, hello arrested judge day yesterday)

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#496

Post by the8472 »

intermerda wrote: post #447
generalizations wrote: post #368

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Either the technicalities matter, or our legal system runs on vibes. I think it is important.

I assume you believe it's important that the federal agents should raid every marijuana dispensary in the US and for the DOJ to prosecute dispensary owners and individuals who smoke and participate in weed consumption in each state. Is that correct? After all, technicalities matter.

The flip side is unevenly enforced laws, with parts of the government having discretion onto whom they bring down the monopoly on violence.

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#497

Post by sanderjd »

firesteelrain wrote: post #65
sanderjd wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the children's citizenship was solely one of birthright Under the US Constitution, this is not a distinction. What you're looking for is just "the children's citizenship" without this qualifier that signifies nothing under the law. The better alternative is to aggressively enforce employment laws against employers . Immigrants come here and stay here to work.

Agree and proper border control which the previous administration failed to enforce. Step 1 is stop the influx.

I'm in favor of that too, but I think this insistence on it being step 1 is actually just a resistance to solving the real problem. (Which is that employers are happy to pay below market wages to illegally employ immigrants who are here unlawfully.)

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#498

Post by rsoto2 »

generalizations wrote: post #368
nharada wrote: post #314

Feels like this conversation is full of people getting hung up on arguing the technicalities and exact phrasing of this situation. Is that really important to the broader conversation?

Either the technicalities matter, or our legal system runs on vibes. I think it is important.

It was once legal to own people so what the fuck do you think it runs on

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#499

Post by Misdicorl »

nickff wrote: post #397
ridgeguy wrote: post #378

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Our legal system has always depended on vibes to mitigate technically correct unjust or catastrophic outcomes. It's broadly labelled "prosecutorial discretion", and operates at every level of the justice system. IMHO, it's essential.

Prosecutorial discretion hasn’t meant much to me since the Bond got prosecuted for violating a chemical weapons treaty, and Yates got prosecuted for fish-shredding. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bond_v._United_States_(2014) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yates_v._United_States_(2015...

Sometimes the vibes are wrong, and things go haywire. This is why zero tolerance policies have to be instituted in schools. That doesnt mean the general idea is wrong. Strict adherence to written law will always fail justice. The world is too nuanced and too fractal to handle every edge case well.

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#500

Post by tomrod »

yubblegum wrote: post #489
tomrod wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We already do this between states in the US and in the EU, so clearly it can work in practice. We don't normally look at it that way, but that is precisely how we structured things.

Someone moving from Virginia to California is moving within the same socio-political order and culture.

Correct! It wasn't always that way, but isn't it wonderful that our laws and governance allowed such a flourishing!
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