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ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

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Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#441

Post by cryptoegorophy »

nharada wrote: post #314

Feels like this conversation is full of people getting hung up on arguing the technicalities and exact phrasing of this situation. Is that really important to the broader conversation?

What’s the conversation? Separating kids from parents or deporting them with parents because we don’t want them to be separate? There is no question about breaking the law by parents. Question is do you let children be with their mothers(who apparently asked to do so) or no.

As someone who came legally to Canada and went through thorough screening of 4 years before coming I just don’t get how people are ok with “cheaters” gaming the system.

“Think of the children” works when you are in a super white rich neighborhood, if you never lived in slums you won’t understand the abuse of the system by “think of the children”, you just don’t see it from the other side.

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#442

Post by SauciestGNU »

lynndotpy wrote: post #420
SauciestGNU wrote: post #356

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Subdermal tracking implants then? Although I wouldn't put it past these drooling sadists to start cutting things out of their prisoners.

I can't tell if this is a serious suggestion, or if it's proposed in the same tone as "a modest proposal". In case you are serious: This is a pretty horrifying proposal. Humans can get microchipped, but these cost money, are very painful to administer, and importantly are RFID only, i.e. not useful for finding ones own children.

I am a fan of Mr Swift, the suggestion was not serious, but my musings about ICE's sadism are.

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#443

Post by UncleMeat »

whimsicalism wrote: post #223
tomrod wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> what do you propose as an alternative with a precedent There is a moral answer, the practical answer, and two popular answers, none of which are particularly satisfying. The moral answer is open borders. Both capital, which is generally freer than people are, and people should be able to vote with their feet. However, this is unsustainable unless all or a large bloc of countries allow it in reciprocity, or at least…

To what degree do we let the people decide how their republic is structured? Voters have rejected this sort of cosmopolitanism at the ballot box, repeatedly. To suggest that governments should open borders over the wishes of their citizens seems to simply be an object-level misunderstanding over the goals of statecraft.

We don't elect an all powerful leader. The people did vote for Trump. But "well they voted for Trump" is not an excuse for him to do literally anything. If the people want legislative changed then they elect people in Congress. If the people want to change the constitution itself then they can seek that too.

But "well Trump won so just have ICE kill them all" (this is what my aunt, a republican lobbyist, wants) is not a thing.

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#444

Post by freen »

perihelions wrote: post #395
nharada wrote: post #314

Feels like this conversation is full of people getting hung up on arguing the technicalities and exact phrasing of this situation. Is that really important to the broader conversation?

C-f "citizenship"—55 results C-f "metastatic cancer"—1 There's a poor child that's being withheld access to their medication and to their oncologists, and the adults in the room—adults in uniforms, adults with guns, adults in suits and adults in black robes—all of these adults are doing their adult things with their adult words, and the sum total of all that is the child still is without their cancer medicine. What g…

The purpose of a system is exactly what it does.

This IS the point, the goal, and the purpose.

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#445

Post by umvi »

int0x29 wrote: post #398

And one child deported without cancer meds. At that point you are just trying to kill people

I don't think it's intentional, but rather collateral damage from trying to do deportations quickly and at the "millions" scale

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#446

Post by [deleted] »

whoknowsidont wrote: post #404
Waterluvian wrote: post #377

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel more disgusted by the Americans who know this is wrong but do nothing. I have no patience for evil people, but the truly damned are all the Americans who know and sense better but do not or cannot act properly. If deporting U.S. CITIZEN CHILDREN does not send you to the streets with fire and fury, you are well and truly lost. So much damn talk over the decades I've been alive about patriotism and liberty from…

>but the truly damned are all the Americans who know and sense better but do not or cannot act properly. MLK said it best: "the moderate who is more devoted to order than to justice, who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice" And even now you have people that think showing up with clever signs around the downtown parks / public areas on the weeke…

[deleted]

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#447

Post by intermerda »

generalizations wrote: post #368
nharada wrote: post #314

Feels like this conversation is full of people getting hung up on arguing the technicalities and exact phrasing of this situation. Is that really important to the broader conversation?

Either the technicalities matter, or our legal system runs on vibes. I think it is important.

I assume you believe it's important that the federal agents should raid every marijuana dispensary in the US and for the DOJ to prosecute dispensary owners and individuals who smoke and participate in weed consumption in each state. Is that correct? After all, technicalities matter.

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#448

Post by usernomdeguerre »

generalizations wrote: post #349
professor_x wrote: post #345

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Learning from history and still ending up on the side of almost every issue that is considered unspeakably cruel a generation later. Slavery, segregation, women’s suffrage, child labor protections, labor rights, Social Security, interracial marriage, homosexuality, civil rights legislation, same-sex marriage, the Vietnam War, the Iraq War, prohibition, environmental protections, public education expansion, healthcare…

>> rely on immediate emotional values....Thus, you get the left calling the right heartless/immoral/racist > considered unspeakably cruel You're not disagreeing on any pragmatic basis, just the emotional one. Like I said.

They gave you a whole list of pragmatic policy differences, are you ignoring them or in agreement?

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#449

Post by shadowgovt »

whimsicalism wrote: post #205
hartator wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, nothing much changed law-wise. No due process at the borders is a shame both now and before, but hopefully this time there is a willingness to change things. Probably not at the next swing of power.

It is genuinely an extremely difficult challenge to manage illegal crossings if every individual must be processed through the full U.S. legal system which has massive resourcing and backlog problems (3m+ cases). Voters across the political spectrum have made it unmistakably clear — in poll after poll — that they are deeply dissatisfied with the current rate of illegal and asylum-seeking entries. Is there a morally p…

Purely hypothetically, blue sky solution space?

If the law exceeds the government's ability to enforce it, relax it. It's de facto relaxed because of the lack of fundamental resources to enforce it... Put the reality on paper.

Stop treating the southern border as a war zone and reopen it. It used to be more open. It was, in fact, more open in that magical America great period that MAGA ostensibly seems to be nostalgic for. Not only did the country survive the openness, it flourished.

If the law is too hard to enforce, have less of it. Lower scrutiny. Hand out day passes. Welcome The stranger with a smile and a friendly wave.

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#450

Post by mindslight »

perihelions wrote: post #395
nharada wrote: post #314

Feels like this conversation is full of people getting hung up on arguing the technicalities and exact phrasing of this situation. Is that really important to the broader conversation?

C-f "citizenship"—55 results C-f "metastatic cancer"—1 There's a poor child that's being withheld access to their medication and to their oncologists, and the adults in the room—adults in uniforms, adults with guns, adults in suits and adults in black robes—all of these adults are doing their adult things with their adult words, and the sum total of all that is the child still is without their cancer medicine. What g…

The assumption of "good intentions" is not really warranted at this point. This movement is mainly driven by people who feel they have been marginalized by our society, and they want to lash out and see other people get hurt, period.

Regardless of the ways they have been marginalized, and how much marginalization they have done to themselves by failing to engage with the complexity of the world and following malicious leaders instead, this is where we are at. We need to stare this bare reality in the face lest the supporters, enablers, and fence-sitters continue soothing themselves with rationalizations.

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