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ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

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Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#421

Post by freen »

gradus_ad wrote: post #365
djoldman wrote: post #56

From what research I've seen, the phrasing here should be that non-citizens were deported and chose to bring their US citizen children with them. The children themselves were not deported. This in no way excuses any of the other issues like not allowing contact with legal advocates / attorneys.

[flagged]

I seriously doubt you are of sufficient “in group” status to avoid the gulag.

I hope that it is never decided that you are a terrorist/enemy combatant/whatever and shipped off without due process to an American concentration camp. (Auschvits wasn’t in Germany either).

Oh, you are a citizen? “Home Grown” so to speak? Trump explicitly said that he needs five more concentration camps in El Salvador just for people like you.

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#422

Post by pembrook »

dghughes wrote: post #311

How much do you want to bet legal US citizens deported will still need to file for US taxes since you can never outrun the IRS.

Of course they do. The hilarity of the US’s uniquely draconian global taxation system collides with its incomprehensible schizophrenic immigration system.

Complexity is the root of all evil.

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#423

Post by wat10000 »

hsuduebc2 wrote: post #347
oblio wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

End jus solis. Allow all current parents to stay. There ya go, the humane solution to this.

Can someone who down voted this comment please explain why? Is this because you do not agree with his general stance or because it simplifies and doesn't contribute to the debate?

I would not consider a radical change to how US citizenship has worked for at least a century and a half to be “non-extreme.”

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#424

Post by tomrod »

ajross wrote: post #406
jmull wrote: post #353

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What’s the logical train of thought here? It’s OK for a citizen to lose their rights if a political party exists that espouses views you don’t agree with and it’s possible someone related to that citizen may (or may not) have listened to those views?

I think the steelman version would be that the rights in question shouldn't exist. In that world view, the birthright citizenship granted by the 14th amendment is an inconvenience to be worked around; and the business here about forcing a "choice"[1] where the parents will "deport" their own citizen children is in fact the desired policy result and not a humanitarian horror. [1] Which of course isn't one, thus the Or…

Yeesh. Even the steelman is grossly immoral!

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#425

Post by 47282847 »

wat10000 wrote: post #403
47282847 wrote: post #376

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only few countries give birthright to children born on their territory. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jus_soli

If by “only a few” you mean “almost every country in the Americas, plus some more.”

Yes. As per the article, 33 countries. Of ~195 in total.

Or, in population: 13%.

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#426

Post by shadowgovt »

chasd00 wrote: post #297
gpm wrote: post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To the extent that they let the mother make a decision, which is itself unclear, I would say all evidence points to that. We only really have the father's and judge's account of events here.

> We only really have the father's and judge's account of events here Given that, then this whole thread is pointless. I just assumed people were more informed based on what they’re claiming.

The point of due process is to construct such a record. The fact that due process is being denied in these circumstances is one of the reasons that so much of the public discussion is rumor and innuendo.

And this is actually one of the many things that this executive doesn't seem to grasp about the fundamentals of how this England-inherited, American-modified government functions. Due process doesn't just protect the people. It protects the king from rumors abounding about his tyranny that eventually lead to his beheading, because if there is no record to show then there is no record to justify the actions of the crown either.

The Magna Carta has stood for about a thousand years. But it has stood because every monarch who tried to place themselves above it found themselves much shorter by the end of their reign.

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#427

Post by mc32 »

tomrod wrote: post #401
47282847 wrote: post #376

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only few countries give birthright to children born on their territory. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jus_soli

One of which is the US,and would require a constitutional amendment to change.

Rather a different interpretation of the XIV. It was intended for slaves and the children of slaves (there were few non-British foreigners in the US) at the time. However, over time, it was interpreted to mean anyone not only the descendants of slaves/ex-slaves). That could very well be re-interpreted.

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#428

Post by UncleMeat »

koolba wrote: post #164
fnordpiglet wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This has literally been declared not the case by the president, and being contested in court, and held as true by a significant percentage of the population. It’s not semantics - it’s become a point of national disagreement. It also leaves out all mention of process. The issue here isn’t that the parents are choosing to bring their citizen children with them but that they’re being denied all ability to leave their ci…

It’s not the case already for foreign diplomats on US soil. If the Russian ambassador’s wife gives birth at a US hospital while visiting the embassy, the child does not get citizenship. Mark my words, Trump is going to win that court case. It’s not far fetched at all to interpret “* and subject to the jurisdiction thereof*” to mean people that have legally entered the country.

Notably, Trump's order also applies to people who entered the country legally. Why'd they include that if they think that only people who entered illegally are not "subject to the jurisdiction thereof?"

And it sure seems like the opinion of legal professionals is that it is far fetched.

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#429

Post by 47282847 »

tomrod wrote: post #401
47282847 wrote: post #376

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only few countries give birthright to children born on their territory. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jus_soli

One of which is the US,and would require a constitutional amendment to change.

The point was that its not wrong to assume you will not get local citizenship, since in most parts of the world you won’t.

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#430

Post by tomrod »

gradus_ad wrote: post #365
djoldman wrote: post #56

From what research I've seen, the phrasing here should be that non-citizens were deported and chose to bring their US citizen children with them. The children themselves were not deported. This in no way excuses any of the other issues like not allowing contact with legal advocates / attorneys.

[flagged]

The rule of law requires due process and following court orders.

Declaring a fake 'invasion' and implementing authoritarianism under the guise of emergency powers was already done in Rome, and decidedly is not the rule of law.

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