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ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

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Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#321

Post by tomrod »

pessimizer wrote: post #208
tomrod wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> here illegally I have to wonder what horrors and shames ones pathway of life must have taken to think a person existing in a space is summarizable as illegal. A person cannot be illegal. They cannot exist in a space illegally. They could enter a space illegally. They could be unauthorized to be in a space. But by simple fact that they exist in the world, if the law makes them illegal to exist, then that law is unju…

> A person cannot be illegal. They cannot exist in a space illegally. I don't know if this is true, it seems more like a situational demand that you're making but giving it the tone of a fact that you're pointing out. If you break into my house, and I shoot you while you're doing it, I won't go to prison. So either you're illegal, or I've become so extraordinarily legal that I can shoot people with impunity. Whatever…

> You don't know anyone here. Your self-regard is off the charts.

Ironically, I know myself fairly well and quite a few folks in all political persuasions, and thus remain confident in my priors. But I could see how one could mistake empathy for egomania.

Calling people "illegal" is a hallmark of steeping in rightwing/authoritarian propaganda as it is about "othering" others. Self-abuse should be discouraged whether it is physical (cutting, suicide, etc.) or mental (losing one's capacity and faculties for reasoning to authoritarian propaganda).[0,1,2,3]

[0] https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3934064

[1] https://www.taylorfrancis.com/chapters/edit/10.4324/97810031...

[2] https://www.biblio.com/book/fox-effect-how-roger-ailes-turne...

[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Brainwashing_of_My_Dad

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#322

Post by ty6853 »

viraptor wrote: post #149
ty6853 wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So basically create a huge incentive to drag very sick kids through the darien gap and cartel land with no real plan for foid and housing of their kids? If i did 1% of that someone would call cps to take my kids.

The incentive already exists. But this case is about US citizen kids, not kids brought in. So concentrating on that: > The families, who had lived in the United States for years and had deep ties to their communities > Both families have possible immigration relief The current actions did not make sense and didn't make anything better or solve any problems.

Valid points. The question is after a judge orders a deportation and the executive is insistent on carrying it out, what would you do with citizen kids after the deportation of their parents?

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#323

Post by UmGuys »

clusterfook wrote: post #2

> But for interesting HN discussion... anyone got any juice on why this is happening. Is there orders going down the chain of command from the president to do this sort of thing. Was this behaviour always there but less reported before? Are they more emboldened by the current environment?

Are you serious? Trump campaigned on spreading cruelty to these people and he's doing it. There's financial incentive to keep people in private prisons, and we're paying to send them to concentration camps, so it's not money. It's just bigotry.

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#324

Post by eastbound »

ajross wrote: post #303
eastbound wrote: post #262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

> And she was given the choice to get separated or keep the child. Representing that as a "choice" is precisely the Orwellian part. I'm guessing you don't have kids.

You’re taking the rest of the world hostage with the child.

The crime was that she was allowed here in the first place, whether by the people who made her believe it was possible, or by her breaking the laws as the act of entry in the country.

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#325

Post by vlovich123 »

Zak wrote: post #307
chasd00 wrote: post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the mother is not a us citizen is she entitled to counsel? Or entitled to anything else? Curious to know to what parts of US law apply to non citizens and what parts do not.

In noncriminal matters such as deportations, there's no right to counsel at public expense. The broader rights to due process of law and habeas corpus have generally been held by the courts to apply to immigration detention and deportation, and people are certainly free to hire counsel at their own expense in such proceedings. It gets tricky when a deportation is completed before a court can hear the case. Attempting…

> In noncriminal matters

It’s interesting how the administration always talks about these people being here illegally and that they’re all criminals but then leverages the non-criminal aspect of the proceedings to their advantage.

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#326

Post by margalabargala »

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #184
margalabargala wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Much as I detest the current administration, the parent comment is correct. While things under both Trump administrations did get mildly worse than they were under his Democrat predecessors, they were plenty bad under Obama and Biden as well. You're talking about bringing up examples from 2017-2020; it turns out, plenty of the examples that were brought up back then, were in fact from the Obama years. Example: https:…

Let's look at your own link: > The story featured photos taken by AP’s Ross D. Franklin at a center run by the Customs and Border Protection Agency in Nogales, Arizona. One photo shows two unidentified female detainees sleeping in a holding cell. The caption refers to U.S. efforts to process 47,000 unaccompanied children at the Nogales center and another one in Brownsville, Texas. I don't know how else you're suppose…

Yes, I fully agree with everything you're saying.

My point is more that I'm not sure exactly how much of what ICE does can particularly be attributed to the administration, on account of the same sorts of stuff happening under every administration, and the waters getting muddied by things being presented in false contexts, which is what I was trying to show with the link I posted.

The family separation policy was horrible, but it was yet another piece of cruel dehumanization on the cruel dehumanization pile that was already there. Secretly revoking student visas and then snatching that person off the street by masked plainclothes officers like happened to Rumeysa Ozturk is cruel and awful, but also, the personnel who did that and their attitude did not appear overnight; ICE is has ICE has always been, and all that changes is the length of the leash given by the President.

What I object to is the implicit framing of what was happening pre-Trump as being fine and correct, and it's only what Trump is doing that's beyond the pale. But I am glad that it's opening people's eyes to what is happening and hope that by shining light on it, perhaps post-Trump we can move to something better than pre-Trump.

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#327

Post by EasyMark »

lawn wrote: post #299
EasyMark wrote: post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think it was meant to devalue their citizenship, but citizenship doesn't trump their safety or need to be with their parents. The parents are going to be deported for being here illegally, would you have the child be separated and put in a foster/community home? Emotions are important but the only pragmatic solution here is to deport all 3, if your nation's policy is deportation for being here illegally. I ag…

Sentencing children to die as they can't receive proper medical care when deported is not in any way the best solution. Unless of course your lack empathy and de-humanize people by calling them "aliens".

[flagged]

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#328

Post by NewJazz »

ashoeafoot wrote: post #180
afavour wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Difficult to describe them as choosing to do anything: > ICE held the families incommunicado, refusing or failing to respond to multiple attempts by attorneys and family members to contact them. In one instance, a mother was granted less than one minute on the phone before the call was abruptly terminated when her spouse tried to provide legal counsel’s phone number. What would they do, leave their child in an ICE fa…

[flagged]

They wouldn't let these kids have toothpaste the last time they did this.

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#329

Post by jmull »

djoldman wrote: post #56

From what research I've seen, the phrasing here should be that non-citizens were deported and chose to bring their US citizen children with them. The children themselves were not deported. This in no way excuses any of the other issues like not allowing contact with legal advocates / attorneys.

You are detained and a guard brandishing a machete presents you with a choice: he’ll either cut off your right hand, or cut off your left.

Being right handed, you choose your left, and he lops it off.

Was it really your choice to have your left hand cut off?

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#330

Post by tomrod »

gedy wrote: post #302
tomrod wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

d) Follow due process and allow the immigration judge to determine e) Amnesty if living here for awhile and not causing a ruckus.[0] US is huge, it needs more people not less. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_Reform_and_Control...

> US is huge, it needs more people not less Would be nice if we had more housing for that.

A tangent, but a welcome one for sure! NIMBYism has led to some pretty terrible outcomes. I recommend giving the work of the StrongTowns organization a read for a critical review of current policy and upcoming issues associated with it, as well as reasonable recommendations for how we can make stronger communities.
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