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ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

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Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#251

Post by whimsicalism »

IG_Semmelweiss wrote: post #246
mrj wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's been a fringe legal theory for a while. But historically it's been understood that even if in the country illegally, somebody driving too fast is going to get a ticket, right? If they commit a crime they are thrown in jail. Clearly they are subject to jurisdiction.

but they could very well be deported 1st. There's nothing stopping that, in fact. The only reason they go to jail is because de-facto that is is fair for the victimm in that he/she gets "Restitution" in the form of jail time for the non-citizen, and presumably, the foreign country may even be able to challenge that. The dejure interpretation may be he should be banished, although that would be unfair to the victim.

How could they deport them? They're not subject to the jurisdiction of the authorities, right?

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#252

Post by lokar »

chasd00 wrote: post #198
gpm wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In at least one of the cases here: The father explicitly did not want the child deported with the mother, had informed ICE of that, and initiated legal proceedings to that effect [1]. The mother and US citizen child were held largely incommunicado. They were not given access to a lawyer, and communication with the father was monitored, and upon the father attempting to give them the phone number for an attorney the p…

A mother’s wish, written/formal or not, for her child will always override that of a father. Fair or not, that’s what happens in the US courts.

She was initially unaware the child could remain. When she found out she wanted the child to stay.

Or at least that is what some reports say. It’s confusing. Fortunately we have a system to due process to figure these issues out.

Unfortunately the current regime has decided that all due process is subject to their discretion.

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#253

Post by ivape »

generalizations wrote: post #240
ivape wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The people that come here legally don't really build anything of significant value when you compare it to entire immigrant communities. Mexicans, Chinese, Indians, Irish, you name it, they build vast amounts of culture and businesses that get integrated into America. Even if you give me 2 million of the smartest legal immigrants, they will pale in comparison to what large immigrant communities offer to the fabric of…

> American right-wing reeks of elitism Common notion, but based in ignorance. I've found that the left wing is more idealistic, but in the sense that they have chosen not to learn from history and rely on immediate emotional values. The right wing sees second order effects and acts on them. Thus, you get the left calling the right heartless/immoral/racist, and the right calling the left idiots.

[flagged]

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#254

Post by mc32 »

rsfern wrote: post #179
djoldman wrote: post #56

From what research I've seen, the phrasing here should be that non-citizens were deported and chose to bring their US citizen children with them. The children themselves were not deported. This in no way excuses any of the other issues like not allowing contact with legal advocates / attorneys.

One thing I don’t understand is how this is even a choice the parents have the legal right to make, assuming their US citizen children do not have passports (I don’t know if the answer to that is publicly known). Can a child legally be taken out of the country without a passport and some kind of verifications?

The same happens to US citizens who have/bear children in other countries. Moreover some will do much as assume the children do not have local citizenship but US citizenship despite being born in that non-US country.

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#255

Post by paulryanrogers »

koolba wrote: post #158
miltonlost wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh wow, what a choice! Imagine, having a gun to your head and saying "but i had a choice!" In no way can you say that these people, given no legal advocates, chose to bring their children, or at least freely chose.

Being eventually forced to decide whether to leave your child behind or take them with you out of the USA is a direct consequence of the choice to illegally enter the country. Are you suggesting we never deport parents under any circumstance? Having a citizen child is not some get-out-deportation-free card.

No one is saying parents cannot be deported. Rather that ICE clearly engineered the circumstances to ensure the child and mother were deported without any practical opportunity for the child to stay.

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#256

Post by lokar »

koolba wrote: post #158
miltonlost wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh wow, what a choice! Imagine, having a gun to your head and saying "but i had a choice!" In no way can you say that these people, given no legal advocates, chose to bring their children, or at least freely chose.

Being eventually forced to decide whether to leave your child behind or take them with you out of the USA is a direct consequence of the choice to illegally enter the country. Are you suggesting we never deport parents under any circumstance? Having a citizen child is not some get-out-deportation-free card.

Entering the US without permission is a civil offense, not a crime in the way most people think of them.

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#257

Post by Kim_Bruning »

gpm wrote: post #170
Volundr wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you arrange this when not allowed to speak with anyone?

The mother and child were in custody, the father was not, and was prompt in acquiring legal counsel, arranging this, and suing, leading to exceptionally clear circumstances in this case. This is the docket for the lawsuit: https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/69940863/v-m-l-v-harper... The mother was also technically able to speak with the father, though monitored, for less than a minute, and they were interrupted wh…

> The mother was also technically able to speak with the father, though monitored, for less than a minute, and they were interrupted when the father attempted to give a number for the attorney to the mother.

Based on your wording alone, would it be safe to say the mother was unable to avail herself of counsel before making a decision?

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#258

Post by fnordpiglet »

koolba wrote: post #164
fnordpiglet wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This has literally been declared not the case by the president, and being contested in court, and held as true by a significant percentage of the population. It’s not semantics - it’s become a point of national disagreement. It also leaves out all mention of process. The issue here isn’t that the parents are choosing to bring their citizen children with them but that they’re being denied all ability to leave their ci…

It’s not the case already for foreign diplomats on US soil. If the Russian ambassador’s wife gives birth at a US hospital while visiting the embassy, the child does not get citizenship. Mark my words, Trump is going to win that court case. It’s not far fetched at all to interpret “* and subject to the jurisdiction thereof*” to mean people that have legally entered the country.

All people in the United States other than consular and other rare carve outs are subject to the jurisdiction of the United States government. Otherwise the government would have no ability to enforce its law on them. I think while you may be right due to political aspects of the Supreme Courts loyalties, it’s hard to find a reading where “jurisdiction” means “parents are citizens a-priori.” There’s no discussion of the parents, just that they’re subject to the laws of the United States, and citizenship and jurisdiction of the United States are concepts that have no intersection.

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#259

Post by IG_Semmelweiss »

Erem wrote: post #248
IG_Semmelweiss wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

US hospitals do not have magical pixie dust to grant US citizenship. This is why birthright as a legal concept is a diminishment of citizenship for all those who hold it. Parents pass on the shared history, values, and national culture to their kids. Parents are those who give value to US citizenship. Not coming out of a belly, that happens to be inside a US hospital.

US constitution thoughtfully disagrees with you, elevating presence on the land at birth over bloodline wrt citizenship. “All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside.” -US Constitution, 14th Amendment Quite literally, US hospitals do have that magic pixie dust because they are on the land of this…

>> and subject to the jurisdiction thereof

Will need to be resolved.

Its not a coincidence that Switzerland is the longest-lasting democracy in the world by a factor of 4x, vs USA. Their framers had the foresight to enshrine their communities' common history, values, and culture.... over pixie dust.

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#260

Post by [deleted] »

harvey9 wrote: post #196
fnordpiglet wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except that’s not the situation here and you left a key option out. D) the child remains with the legally resident / citizen parent or their immediate families In these cases they have legally resident parents, just not the one who the child was with when snatched without due process. They’re being denied the ability to coordinate the handoff of the child to the other parent or family who can take responsibility. ICE…

Your option d looks to be much like the option b in the post you replied to

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