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ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

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Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#231

Post by whimsicalism »

IG_Semmelweiss wrote: post #222
whimsicalism wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are only people with at least 1 naturalized citizen parent the only people subject to the jurisdiction of the United States?

This is switching the topic. The 14th amendment discusses who is a citizen. It does not capture who is a subject to US jurisdictions, or not. That part is open to interpretation , likely because it is based in common law.

e: You've now edited your comment to be consistent with what you originally said. Before edit, the commenter said that the jurisdiction clause meant that at least one parent needed to be at least a legal visitor to the US.

Not only is that not in the text of the 14th, it's different from your original proposal two comments ago. If you really want to do this fine-grained reading to try to support your point, you might notice that 1. the subject to the jurisdiction clause is the baby, not the parents, 2. breaking a law does not mean you are not subject to the jurisdiction of the state you reside in.

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#232

Post by jf »

IG_Semmelweiss wrote: post #204
whimsicalism wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's remind ourselves of the text of the 14th amendment: “All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside.” > It has been proposed that the US citizenship model was always like the Swiss model - you could only be a citizen if you were born of at least 1 citizen (naturalized or otherwise). For reasons…

IANAL, but interpretation of: "and subject to the jurisdiction thereof" seems critical to make a determination on whether you are correct or not. Take the act of a random french spy who goes to the UK for the purpose of defecting, without express permission of either government. Does that make him a subject to the UK crown? I think the historical outcome of such situation would be crystal-clear.

Your example doesn’t make sense because the 14th amendment only applies to the United States and not the United Kingdom.

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#234

Post by bee_rider »

pessimizer wrote: post #188
rsfern wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One thing I don’t understand is how this is even a choice the parents have the legal right to make, assuming their US citizen children do not have passports (I don’t know if the answer to that is publicly known). Can a child legally be taken out of the country without a passport and some kind of verifications?

I think the US government seizing the birthright citizen children of undocumented immigrant parents is an extreme position.

What’s the non-extreme option, if the plan is to kick out the non-citizen parents of US citizen children?

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#235

Post by chasd00 »

IG_Semmelweiss wrote: post #176
somenameforme wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every day across the world thousands of people are removed from countries around the world for violating immigration laws. Except in cases of where it coincided with criminality, it's always going to be very ugly, because it means somebody had built up a life for themselves somewhere and that is now ended due to them having been born in a different place and then overstayed their permission, or never received such, t…

First, the US needs to resolve its issue of citizenship. It has been proposed that the US citizenship model was always like the Swiss model - you could only be a citizen if you were born of at least 1 citizen (naturalized or otherwise). For reasons I'm not clear, this has not been strictly enforced for some time. Instead we defaulted to "anyone born in a US hospital is a citizen" Then, as welfare, lack of law enforce…

> It has been proposed that the US citizenship model was always like the Swiss model - you could only be a citizen if you were born of at least 1 citizen (naturalized or otherwise)

I like this a lot. That makes total sense and would take away the incentive to cross the border to give birth.

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#236

Post by mrj »

IG_Semmelweiss wrote: post #204
whimsicalism wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's remind ourselves of the text of the 14th amendment: “All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside.” > It has been proposed that the US citizenship model was always like the Swiss model - you could only be a citizen if you were born of at least 1 citizen (naturalized or otherwise). For reasons…

IANAL, but interpretation of: "and subject to the jurisdiction thereof" seems critical to make a determination on whether you are correct or not. Take the act of a random french spy who goes to the UK for the purpose of defecting, without express permission of either government. Does that make him a subject to the UK crown? I think the historical outcome of such situation would be crystal-clear.

That's been a fringe legal theory for a while. But historically it's been understood that even if in the country illegally, somebody driving too fast is going to get a ticket, right? If they commit a crime they are thrown in jail. Clearly they are subject to jurisdiction.

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#237

Post by harvey9 »

tomrod wrote: post #210
harvey9 wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

E was what the Democrats have offered and it lost them the last election

Nah, lies, propaganda, and an incoherent strategy for Biden leading to limited window with Harris lost the last election. There was a perfectly cromulent immigration plan ready to be voted on by Congress before Trump threw a tantrum because it would have hurt his election chances.

They threw Harris a hospital pass, and other variables also matter, but ultimately the party that was positive about migration lost the vote.

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#238

Post by tomrod »

whimsicalism wrote: post #223
tomrod wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> what do you propose as an alternative with a precedent There is a moral answer, the practical answer, and two popular answers, none of which are particularly satisfying. The moral answer is open borders. Both capital, which is generally freer than people are, and people should be able to vote with their feet. However, this is unsustainable unless all or a large bloc of countries allow it in reciprocity, or at least…

To what degree do we let the people decide how their republic is structured? Voters have rejected this sort of cosmopolitanism at the ballot box, repeatedly. To suggest that governments should open borders over the wishes of their citizens seems to simply be an object-level misunderstanding over the goals of statecraft.

Repeating a bit, but we already do this between states in the US and in the EU, so clearly it can work in practice.

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#239

Post by [deleted] »

koolba wrote: post #158
miltonlost wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh wow, what a choice! Imagine, having a gun to your head and saying "but i had a choice!" In no way can you say that these people, given no legal advocates, chose to bring their children, or at least freely chose.

Being eventually forced to decide whether to leave your child behind or take them with you out of the USA is a direct consequence of the choice to illegally enter the country. Are you suggesting we never deport parents under any circumstance? Having a citizen child is not some get-out-deportation-free card.

[deleted]

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#240

Post by generalizations »

ivape wrote: post #194
IG_Semmelweiss wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First, the US needs to resolve its issue of citizenship. It has been proposed that the US citizenship model was always like the Swiss model - you could only be a citizen if you were born of at least 1 citizen (naturalized or otherwise). For reasons I'm not clear, this has not been strictly enforced for some time. Instead we defaulted to "anyone born in a US hospital is a citizen" Then, as welfare, lack of law enforce…

The people that come here legally don't really build anything of significant value when you compare it to entire immigrant communities. Mexicans, Chinese, Indians, Irish, you name it, they build vast amounts of culture and businesses that get integrated into America. Even if you give me 2 million of the smartest legal immigrants, they will pale in comparison to what large immigrant communities offer to the fabric of…

> American right-wing reeks of elitism

Common notion, but based in ignorance. I've found that the left wing is more idealistic, but in the sense that they have chosen not to learn from history and rely on immediate emotional values. The right wing sees second order effects and acts on them.

Thus, you get the left calling the right heartless/immoral/racist, and the right calling the left idiots.

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