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ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

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Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#211

Post by chasd00 »

sswatson wrote: post #44
somenameforme wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every day across the world thousands of people are removed from countries around the world for violating immigration laws. Except in cases of where it coincided with criminality, it's always going to be very ugly, because it means somebody had built up a life for themselves somewhere and that is now ended due to them having been born in a different place and then overstayed their permission, or never received such, t…

The phrase "solely one of birthright" suggests the diminishment of the citizenship of certain people. That is not how citizenship works: no one is less of a citizen than anyone else. The most objectionable part here — by far — is not the deportation of the parents, but the deportation of citizens and the lack of due process. The alternative being proposed is that if ICE is going to deport the parents of US citizen ch…

What you’re really saying is you want this family broken up for the rage bait. You want the picture of a child crying for their mother as the plane takes off for the views.

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#212

Post by tastyfreeze »

nikanj wrote: post #94
somenameforme wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every day across the world thousands of people are removed from countries around the world for violating immigration laws. Except in cases of where it coincided with criminality, it's always going to be very ugly, because it means somebody had built up a life for themselves somewhere and that is now ended due to them having been born in a different place and then overstayed their permission, or never received such, t…

The previous time the big mad that Obama was (supposedly) not born on the US soil, now the problem is that someone was born in the US. Is there an acceptable way for POC to get citizenship anymore, if it's not by inheritance and it's not by being born in the US?

A quarter of US citizens are not white. Maybe POC isn't the best term to use here.

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#213

Post by gpm »

chasd00 wrote: post #198
gpm wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In at least one of the cases here: The father explicitly did not want the child deported with the mother, had informed ICE of that, and initiated legal proceedings to that effect [1]. The mother and US citizen child were held largely incommunicado. They were not given access to a lawyer, and communication with the father was monitored, and upon the father attempting to give them the phone number for an attorney the p…

A mother’s wish, written/formal or not, for her child will always override that of a father. Fair or not, that’s what happens in the US courts.

Actually what happened in the US court here is the US court attempted to intercede while the mother and child were still in US custody and ICE ignored the court until they had successfully removed the mother and child from US custody. As a result the court never got to learn the mothers wishes at all.

(Also not true, but that's besides the point)

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#214

Post by ffsm8 »

chasd00 wrote: post #198
gpm wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In at least one of the cases here: The father explicitly did not want the child deported with the mother, had informed ICE of that, and initiated legal proceedings to that effect [1]. The mother and US citizen child were held largely incommunicado. They were not given access to a lawyer, and communication with the father was monitored, and upon the father attempting to give them the phone number for an attorney the p…

A mother’s wish, written/formal or not, for her child will always override that of a father. Fair or not, that’s what happens in the US courts.

While true, kinda irrelevant?

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#215

Post by whimsicalism »

IG_Semmelweiss wrote: post #204
whimsicalism wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's remind ourselves of the text of the 14th amendment: “All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside.” > It has been proposed that the US citizenship model was always like the Swiss model - you could only be a citizen if you were born of at least 1 citizen (naturalized or otherwise). For reasons…

IANAL, but interpretation of: "and subject to the jurisdiction thereof" seems critical to make a determination on whether you are correct or not. Take the act of a random french spy who goes to the UK for the purpose of defecting, without express permission of either government. Does that make him a subject to the UK crown? I think the historical outcome of such situation would be crystal-clear.

Are only people with at least 1 naturalized citizen parent the only people subject to the jurisdiction of the United States?

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#216

Post by rsfern »

pessimizer wrote: post #188
rsfern wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One thing I don’t understand is how this is even a choice the parents have the legal right to make, assuming their US citizen children do not have passports (I don’t know if the answer to that is publicly known). Can a child legally be taken out of the country without a passport and some kind of verifications?

I think the US government seizing the birthright citizen children of undocumented immigrant parents is an extreme position.

That’s a strawman argument that I would never advocate, and completely ignores my question.

Alternatives include arranging legal custody for the child and to stay in the US with a relative (as one family was attempting), or finding a legal way for them to leave the country with their parents.

Instead, it seems the government is rushing to illegally remove these children before the courts can intervene

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#217

Post by yubblegum »

tomrod wrote: post #199
somenameforme wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every day across the world thousands of people are removed from countries around the world for violating immigration laws. Except in cases of where it coincided with criminality, it's always going to be very ugly, because it means somebody had built up a life for themselves somewhere and that is now ended due to them having been born in a different place and then overstayed their permission, or never received such, t…

> what do you propose as an alternative with a precedent There is a moral answer, the practical answer, and two popular answers, none of which are particularly satisfying. The moral answer is open borders. Both capital, which is generally freer than people are, and people should be able to vote with their feet. However, this is unsustainable unless all or a large bloc of countries allow it in reciprocity, or at least…

> The moral answer is open borders. Both capital, which is generally freer than people are, and people should be able to vote with their feet. However, this is unsustainable unless ..

A strong no on this being "the moral answer". If people are permitted to vote with their feet maybe people are also permitted to build pickets around communities. That sounds more "moral" to me than entirely ignoring the wishes of the chosen destination's "people". IFF the destination is happy to welcome people who think their community better than their own and want to move over, then fine, that is a much better candidate for "the moral answer".

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#218

Post by exe34 »

elicksaur wrote: post #161
gpm wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They would transfer custody to an individual who was allowed to remain in the US. This had been organized in the case of at least one of the US citizens deported (expelled?) here.

[flagged]

Is it really "deported" without a court ruling? I thought it was human trafficking?

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#219

Post by exe34 »

rsfern wrote: post #216
pessimizer wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the US government seizing the birthright citizen children of undocumented immigrant parents is an extreme position.

That’s a strawman argument that I would never advocate, and completely ignores my question. Alternatives include arranging legal custody for the child and to stay in the US with a relative (as one family was attempting), or finding a legal way for them to leave the country with their parents. Instead, it seems the government is rushing to illegally remove these children before the courts can intervene

> it seems the government is rushing to illegally

That's the last 4 months really.

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#220

Post by fnordpiglet »

harvey9 wrote: post #196
fnordpiglet wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except that’s not the situation here and you left a key option out. D) the child remains with the legally resident / citizen parent or their immediate families In these cases they have legally resident parents, just not the one who the child was with when snatched without due process. They’re being denied the ability to coordinate the handoff of the child to the other parent or family who can take responsibility. ICE…

Your option d looks to be much like the option b in the post you replied to

Except it’s not, because it’s not the parents but “a parent” being deported, and b) was phrased fallaciously to imply the child would be left alone without legal care givers.
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