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ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

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Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#171

Post by Volundr »

__turbobrew__ wrote: post #145
somenameforme wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every day across the world thousands of people are removed from countries around the world for violating immigration laws. Except in cases of where it coincided with criminality, it's always going to be very ugly, because it means somebody had built up a life for themselves somewhere and that is now ended due to them having been born in a different place and then overstayed their permission, or never received such, t…

> Like in this case, what do you propose as an alternative with a precedent that you think could be agreeable to most people? I like how nobody has actually answered this question yet, and have only harped on your birthright comment. The parents are in the US illegally, ICE deports people who are in the US illegally. Presumably the parents didn’t want to leave their USC kids behind so they brought them. I guess possi…

While plenty of people would prefer 2) there would be a lot less outcry if they were allowing 1) especially in cases where the kid already has a legal USC guardian like the one discussed here where the father couldn't even speak with the mother before her and his child was deported.

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#172

Post by [deleted] »

gpm wrote: post #147
afavour wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Difficult to describe them as choosing to do anything: > ICE held the families incommunicado, refusing or failing to respond to multiple attempts by attorneys and family members to contact them. In one instance, a mother was granted less than one minute on the phone before the call was abruptly terminated when her spouse tried to provide legal counsel’s phone number. What would they do, leave their child in an ICE fa…

They would transfer custody to an individual who was allowed to remain in the US. This had been organized in the case of at least one of the US citizens deported (expelled?) here.

[deleted]

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#173

Post by [deleted] »

gpm wrote: post #141
djoldman wrote: post #56

From what research I've seen, the phrasing here should be that non-citizens were deported and chose to bring their US citizen children with them. The children themselves were not deported. This in no way excuses any of the other issues like not allowing contact with legal advocates / attorneys.

In at least one of the cases here: The father explicitly did not want the child deported with the mother, had informed ICE of that, and initiated legal proceedings to that effect [1]. The mother and US citizen child were held largely incommunicado. They were not given access to a lawyer, and communication with the father was monitored, and upon the father attempting to give them the phone number for an attorney the p…

[deleted]

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#174

Post by threatofrain »

V-eHGsd_ wrote: post #162
kadushka wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

no one is less of a citizen than anyone else This is not true - a citizen by birth can become the president, a naturalized citizen cannot.

While true, I believe op was talking about with respect to the protections afforded by the law.

While true, one thing OP could be talking about is the spiritualism implied by that rule, and whether it finds catch in the American psychology.

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#175

Post by UncleMeat »

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #89
UncleMeat wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why then are people with legal visas being detained or having their visas revoked if it is just those who "flooded here illegally" under threat? Clinton said that many Trump voters were deplorables. Trump said that many immigrants are not human . Now I know which sounds more like the Nazis to me.

> Trump said that many immigrants are not human. I am very much not a Trump fan, but I need to see a source for that claim.

https://www.reuters.com/world/us/trump-expected-highlight-mu...

> "The Democrats say, 'Please don't call them animals. They're humans.' I said, 'No, they're not humans, they're not humans, they're animals,'" said Trump, president from 2017 to 2021.

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#176

Post by IG_Semmelweiss »

somenameforme wrote: post #30
clusterfook wrote: post #2

> But for interesting HN discussion... anyone got any juice on why this is happening. Is there orders going down the chain of command from the president to do this sort of thing. Was this behaviour always there but less reported before? Are they more emboldened by the current environment?

Every day across the world thousands of people are removed from countries around the world for violating immigration laws. Except in cases of where it coincided with criminality, it's always going to be very ugly, because it means somebody had built up a life for themselves somewhere and that is now ended due to them having been born in a different place and then overstayed their permission, or never received such, t…

First, the US needs to resolve its issue of citizenship. It has been proposed that the US citizenship model was always like the Swiss model - you could only be a citizen if you were born of at least 1 citizen (naturalized or otherwise). For reasons I'm not clear, this has not been strictly enforced for some time. Instead we defaulted to "anyone born in a US hospital is a citizen"

Then, as welfare, lack of law enforcement and border grew, the broken citizenship process became a larger problem that now we have to deal with.

To me, the answer to your question of what is the alternative is as follows: The sole act of breaking laws and cutting the line to come into the country, to then birth babies here for the pusposes of straightjacketing the host's own response seems like should not be allowed, full stop. The premise of becoming a US citizen cannot be grounded in 2 crimes being committed before you are a citizen (1 illegal entry, 1 lying about your asylum petition).

We then have the issue of citizenship. It cannot be that because you come out of a womb that happens to be passing by a US hospital, you are a US citizen. US hospitals do not have magic pixie dust that grant american-ness. The Swiss have the right model that you actually have to come from at least 1 national parent, to foster national unity. The Swiss have the longest-lasting democracy in the world for a reason. Ignoring this seems suicidal. In nature and history, no humans prospered without an organized tribe centered around shared history and values.

Then there are the cases of people that came here, all legally, and found a life worth having by contributing to society. There should be a path for them to be citizens. What that path looks like, I dont know. But that's a conversation worth having soon since they are paying the price for the crimes and abuse committed by the 1st group.

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#177

Post by preommr »

bko wrote: post #154
anikan_vader wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Due Process is being denied to US citizens, who are being removed from the country without the opportunity for them or their parents to consult an attorney.

From Claude > According to a Migration Policy Institute report, the deportation system dramatically changed over the past 19 years - moving from a judicial system prior to 1996 where most people facing deportation had immigration court hearings, to a system during Obama's administration where 75 percent of people removed did not see a judge before being deported. You have to understand that most what you read about o…

Can I point out that this administration has gone out of it's way to flaunt it's disregard for the law and constitutional norms? Is anyone buying that the US can't pressure El Salvador to get back someone it wants? Anyone in doubt that it's a backroom deal in defiance of due process?

There's a reason why trust in the ruling administration is so important, because otherwise the system breaks down. Any time any questions pop up about how the law is being violated, Tom Homan breaks down crying about how the real crime is how children are baking to death in the heat of the sun, that children are being raped by cartel members... like what do you even say to that? Its easy to see why people are able to commit acts of great cruelty if they've convinced themselves that it's a neccesary evil for the greater good.

And it is unprecedented for modern times and it is a constitutional crisis on an almost daily basis.

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#178

Post by ModernMech »

sfasdfasd wrote: post #118
miltonlost wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is less accurate. It erases the US citizenship of the children by being born here with the 14th Amendment, and subtly implies that they AREN'T citizens and are just "U.S.-Born" as if the 14th Amendment didn't apply (like Trump wants).

"U.S Born" == "U.S Citizenship" would be the default assumption of any rational, thinking person. You can add more words to say the same thing but it only ends up being annoying.

It's not a matter of rationality and logic. The executive believes the 14th amendment only applies to former slaves. They don't believe it's operable in the 21st century and they don't believe it applies to foreign nationals. They call such children "anchor babies". Courts don't agree with that, but the executive also believes courts don't have the right to limit the executive when it comes to matters of immigration.

I can understand why this level of pedantry is annoying but we are not dealing with good faith arguments here. They are power plays.

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#179

Post by rsfern »

djoldman wrote: post #56

From what research I've seen, the phrasing here should be that non-citizens were deported and chose to bring their US citizen children with them. The children themselves were not deported. This in no way excuses any of the other issues like not allowing contact with legal advocates / attorneys.

One thing I don’t understand is how this is even a choice the parents have the legal right to make, assuming their US citizen children do not have passports (I don’t know if the answer to that is publicly known). Can a child legally be taken out of the country without a passport and some kind of verifications?

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#180

Post by ashoeafoot »

afavour wrote: post #76
djoldman wrote: post #56

From what research I've seen, the phrasing here should be that non-citizens were deported and chose to bring their US citizen children with them. The children themselves were not deported. This in no way excuses any of the other issues like not allowing contact with legal advocates / attorneys.

Difficult to describe them as choosing to do anything: > ICE held the families incommunicado, refusing or failing to respond to multiple attempts by attorneys and family members to contact them. In one instance, a mother was granted less than one minute on the phone before the call was abruptly terminated when her spouse tried to provide legal counsel’s phone number. What would they do, leave their child in an ICE fa…

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