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Pope Francis has died

reuters.com

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Re: Pope Francis has died

#111

Post by gghhzzgghhzz »

devcpp wrote: post #77
gghhzzgghhzz wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> protected installations (such as residential areas or even hospitals) lose their protection if they are being abused by a warring party for military operations You should maybe research where key millitary apparatus of the Israeli state is located. The headquarters of the IDF for example.

I am familiar with IDF headquarters, they are located in a clearly marked base, you can see it on Google Maps. This is similar to French army's Hexagone Balard in Paris or the Italian and Dutch armies HQ for example, from a cursory search, ask your local LLM for more. Can you say the same about Hamas?

It's in a residential area. I'm pointing out the hypocrisy. The whole area is heavily militarized, there are bases everywhere, citizens are automaticlaly enrolled into the IDF - every Israeli citizen in a certain age group can be considered a legitimate millitary target if you follow your logic.

The arguments you are using for attacking Palestinian infastructure and people are more than applicable to Israeli infastructure and population.

In international law people have the right to resist occupation through millitary means. In a small area under occupation then there is no means to create a millitary setup that matches what the 'good guys' consider to be legitimate.

If you want to be consistent then allow Palestinians to have a millitary, air space, airports, ports, navy, jets, nuclear weapons etc. And then you can fight them on equal terms.

Re: Pope Francis has died

#112

Post by Teever »

throwawaysad123 wrote: post #81

[flagged]

There were recent posts about George Foreman and Val Kilmer dying. The way these rules are enforced is pretty hit and miss.

With that said I think that the pope dying is a subject worth discussing on HN.

It's unfortunate that it seems to be descending into a flame war about Israel though.

Re: Pope Francis has died

#113

Post by regentbowerbird »

devcpp wrote: post #72
regentbowerbird wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I follow your logic: - Israel has to eradicate Hamas as its existence is too much of a threat ("there is no alternative") - Hamas has embedded itself in the civilian population in Gaza so that they are indistinguishable - therefore, Israel must eliminate all Gazawis to guarantee its security So.. Will Israel kill millions to avenge the deaths of thousands?

You used the word indistinguishable, the other person used "deep". You are factually wrong since the ratio of Hamas to Gazan casualties does not represent random targeting even by the worst estimates. You also ignore the possibility of Hamas eventually giving up or some other diplomatic solution being reached. We are a highly technical community, we should be able to debug the situation and find edge cases rather tha…

> You used to word indistinguishable, the other person used "deep". You are factually wrong since the ratio of Hamas to Gazan casualties does not represent random targeting even by the worst estimates.

True, I apologize for the misrepresentation; but reasoning is the same. At some point Hamas is too deeply ingrained in Gazawi society for Israel to perfectly excise it.

Hamas is the civilian government of Gaza and therefore includes firefighters, doctors, policemen, teachers. Israel does count them as members of Hamas and relies on statistical methods to select targets (ie you are on the same WhatsApp group as a member of Hamas, therefore you are likely to be a member, see the "Lavender" target selection program).

For a point of comparison, after Nazi Germany collapsed the Western allies had German civil servants fill questionnaires to assess their level of involvement; of 3.6 millions surveyed, just 1% were charged as "main culprits" (Hauptschuldige), whereas a third were designated as "followers" (Mitläufer), who basically contributed to the regime's crimes but nontheless got to keep their jobs after the war. I'd argue the allies were way too lenient on Germany, but the current Israeli approach (kill them all) is too extreme and will not work because its objectives are unrealistic.

> You also ignore the possibility of Hamas eventually giving up or some other diplomatic solution being reached.

I sure hope peace will be reached but Israel is waging a war without clear conditions of victory, leaving only total destruction of the enemy as their strategic objective. Think of the US trying to eliminate all the communist Vietnamese by compiling kill counts.

My impression is the war will end either when Gaza is drained of all of its population, or Israel tires of the war and reduces its stated objectives (probably this would involve a shift in government).

> We are a highly technical community, we should be able to debug the situation and find edge cases rather than trivialize it.

We can't solve everything with tech principles. Even in our field, probably the biggest thing separating a senior from a junior is humility and ability to connect with other people.

Re: Pope Francis has died

#114

Post by aubanel »

mentalgear wrote: post #89

Francis stood for values over positions and ranks, which was a real revolution. I sincerely hope the new pope will be as human, humble and pushing for renewal as Francis. I think that after such a pope, people won't be satisfied with just another symbolic figure with empty gestures, hard conservative views and no real substance.

Are you pointing to another pope with "another symbolic figure with empty gestures"? Would be clearer to name him then! Having read a bit of the previous pope Benedict XVI I liked a lot what he did/wrote

Re: Pope Francis has died

#115

Post by aredox »

kome wrote: post #91
wwilim wrote: post #33

[flagged]

Bergoglio was a South American intellectual. He could recognize a proxy war when he saw one. That's why his account of the war was a tad more complex and articulated than that of the average liberal Anglo.

He even sees a proxy war when there is none...

Let me make this clear for you: Russia invaded Ukraine, and wants to erase the existence of Ukraine.

Russia steals Ukrainian grain and agricultural machines.

Russia destroys Ukrainian museums and any historical artefact related to Ukrainian writers.

Russia steals ukrainian children to raise them as russians.

Russia is engaged in open genocidal elimination of Ukraine. They speak about it openly, they write about it, they issue press releases about it.

There is no proxy there. Russia is doing all of this by themselves.

Re: Pope Francis has died

#116

Post by [deleted] »

ckdot wrote: post #95

Why is this posted on HN, even twice? It’s not like other news sources won’t announce this. The pope had its good and bad sides, but in the end we should remind ourselves he’s just a human being. It’s OK for HN to inform about people here, but shouldn’t they be somehow related to any topics HN touches? The popes was just a guy who somehow got popular because of some quite successful religion - but I’d personally pref…

[deleted]

Re: Pope Francis has died

#117

Post by dredmorbius »

pyfon wrote: post #103
d3ckard wrote: post #44

I think he will be mostly remembered as a terrible politician, first alienating conservatives with progressive policy and then alienating liberals with very questionable opinions on war in Ukraine. In the end, nobody was really happy with him. On the other hand, he definitely had a will and a spine to stick to his own opinions - I guess that counts for something.

A good politician is a people pleaser?

A comment I'd heard some time back concerned a politician. The speaker (not a politician themselves, but recalling an interaction with one) had said to the politician something like "I suppose you want to win with the biggest majority possible". The politician responded along the lines of, "No, that would mean I wasn't doing my job; if I'm really pushing the limits of the possible I'll have just the barest majority."

People pleasing in politics means never pushing out of the public's comfort zone.

(And no, this isn't an endorsement of any current orange head of state, far from it.)

Re: Pope Francis has died

#118

Post by throwawaysad123 »

Teever wrote: post #112
throwawaysad123 wrote: post #81

[flagged]

There were recent posts about George Foreman and Val Kilmer dying. The way these rules are enforced is pretty hit and miss. With that said I think that the pope dying is a subject worth discussing on HN. It's unfortunate that it seems to be descending into a flame war about Israel though.

I don't get it. There are nearly unlimited forums where these deaths, especially the pope, are being actively discussed. Why do we need it here?

Hacker News was once a place focused on sharing news you wouldn't find most other places. Is it time to update the guidelines?

Re: Pope Francis has died

#119

Post by column »

carlos-menezes wrote: post #54
jjude wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pope John Paul II was also extremely popular across the world.

He was, but John Paul II was traditionally conservative. I think Francis resonated with more people–Christian or not–because he emphasized compassion, humility, and social justice. He spoke more openly about issues like poverty, climate change, and inclusion–his encyclical LAUDATO SI’ is a great read–, and he often used language and gestures that the "common man" could relate to. Perhaps the way he dressed so simply–…

[flagged]

Re: Pope Francis has died

#120

Post by tomhow »

ckdot wrote: post #95

Why is this posted on HN, even twice? It’s not like other news sources won’t announce this. The pope had its good and bad sides, but in the end we should remind ourselves he’s just a human being. It’s OK for HN to inform about people here, but shouldn’t they be somehow related to any topics HN touches? The popes was just a guy who somehow got popular because of some quite successful religion - but I’d personally pref…

It's conventional for there to be a thread on HN when a major pubic figure dies. If you look at the list of obituary posts on HN [1], several of the biggest were for politicians, royals, and others unrelated to computer science and technology.

It's in keeping with the convention that stories that have "significant new information" are on topic for HN, and that includes major mainstream news stories when they first break.

[1] https://hn.algolia.com/?q=%22has+died%22

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