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Pope Francis has died

reuters.com

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Re: Pope Francis has died

#71

Post by StefanBatory »

jjude wrote: post #34
carlos-menezes wrote: post #23

https://www.vaticannews.va/en/pope/news/2025-04/pope-francis... > According to Archbishop Diego Ravelli, Master of Apostolic Ceremonies, the late Pope Francis had requested that the funeral rites be simplified and focused on expressing the faith of the Church in the Risen Body of Christ. Always struck me as a simple man and that likely contributed to people liking him more when compared to his predecessors. RIP.

Pope John Paul II was also extremely popular across the world.

In Poland, he was a figure bigger than life.

Re: Pope Francis has died

#72

Post by devcpp »

regentbowerbird wrote: post #47
mschuster91 wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

If I follow your logic: - Israel has to eradicate Hamas as its existence is too much of a threat ("there is no alternative") - Hamas has embedded itself in the civilian population in Gaza so that they are indistinguishable - therefore, Israel must eliminate all Gazawis to guarantee its security So.. Will Israel kill millions to avenge the deaths of thousands?

You used the word indistinguishable, the other person used "deep". You are factually wrong since the ratio of Hamas to Gazan casualties does not represent random targeting even by the worst estimates. You also ignore the possibility of Hamas eventually giving up or some other diplomatic solution being reached.

We are a highly technical community, we should be able to debug the situation and find edge cases rather than trivialize it.

Re: Pope Francis has died

#73

Post by regentbowerbird »

mschuster91 wrote: post #52
regentbowerbird wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I follow your logic: - Israel has to eradicate Hamas as its existence is too much of a threat ("there is no alternative") - Hamas has embedded itself in the civilian population in Gaza so that they are indistinguishable - therefore, Israel must eliminate all Gazawis to guarantee its security So.. Will Israel kill millions to avenge the deaths of thousands?

> therefore, Israel must eliminate all Gazawis itself to guarantee its security Guess why they're keeping the Palestinians on a run: to ransack the entire place for weapons caches or Gaza Metro entrances. And that's not eliminating the Gazan population, by the way. I don't like it very much myself, but honestly, I do not see any other way of making sure Hamas does not rise up again. > Will Israel kill millions to ave…

> Guess why they're keeping the Palestinians on a run: to ransack the entire place for weapons caches or Gaza Metro entrances.

Let's say Israel finds all caches and tunnels, while not disturbing the population of Gaza (besides blockade, forced displacement and destruction of their homes), and then lets the population back in. Israel cannot tell Hamas militants from civilians, so some measure of Hamas will survive the event -- indeed, it might even reinforce anti-Israeli sentiment. What then would stop these leftover Hamas members from rebuilding whatever smuggling routes and weapon caches they had?

> Again: it's not about revenge any more, it's about preventing the repeat of 2006-2023 aka constant terror from Qassam rockets and other terrorism.

According to OCHAOPT Israel suffered 138 casualties on its own territory (ie excluding Gaza and the West Bank) from Palestinian attacks from 2008 to the eve of October 7. Would you say the current Israeli response (which itself inflicts terror) has been proportionate? Where would you place the threshold where it would no longer be an acceptable response?

Re: Pope Francis has died

#74

Post by vidarh »

mschuster91 wrote: post #46
d3ckard wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With all due respect, massacring civilians because “you have no other choice” is historically not an excuse holding up in courts. Israel has enormous advantage over Palestinians and while I don’t mind them waging war with Hamas, indiscriminate bombing is not ok and never will be.

> With all due respect, massacring civilians because “you have no other choice” is historically not an excuse holding up in courts. The thing is, under the rules of war, protected installations (such as residential areas or even hospitals) lose their protection if they are being abused by a warring party for military operations. Otherwise, it would be an open invitation for anyone to do what Hamas did - force the oth…

[flagged]

Re: Pope Francis has died

#76

Post by devcpp »

d3ckard wrote: post #42
mschuster91 wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

With all due respect, massacring civilians because “you have no other choice” is historically not an excuse holding up in courts. Israel has enormous advantage over Palestinians and while I don’t mind them waging war with Hamas, indiscriminate bombing is not ok and never will be.

The word massacre is loaded and does not represent the typical reality in Gaza. Most estimates place the ratio of combatant to civilian casualties within the range for armed conflicts, nevermind guerilla warfare settings.

Re: Pope Francis has died

#77

Post by devcpp »

gghhzzgghhzz wrote: post #65
mschuster91 wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> With all due respect, massacring civilians because “you have no other choice” is historically not an excuse holding up in courts. The thing is, under the rules of war, protected installations (such as residential areas or even hospitals) lose their protection if they are being abused by a warring party for military operations. Otherwise, it would be an open invitation for anyone to do what Hamas did - force the oth…

> protected installations (such as residential areas or even hospitals) lose their protection if they are being abused by a warring party for military operations You should maybe research where key millitary apparatus of the Israeli state is located. The headquarters of the IDF for example.

I am familiar with IDF headquarters, they are located in a clearly marked base, you can see it on Google Maps. This is similar to French army's Hexagone Balard in Paris or the Italian and Dutch armies HQ for example, from a cursory search, ask your local LLM for more.

Can you say the same about Hamas?

Re: Pope Francis has died

#79

Post by froh »

jongjong wrote: post #63
haunter wrote: post #3

RIP. His speech yesterday (he dictated it I guess) was very very political, not on the usual level, felt like a finally "all out" for me. https://www.vatican.va/content/francesco/en/messages/urbi/do...

Thanks for posting this. >> Love has triumphed over hatred, light over darkness and truth over falsehood. This is interesting since I thought he was displeased about recent world events (e.g. Trump's election, shift towards deglobalization, ...).

that fragment references Easter theology. at a fundamental level love is stronger than everything, including the unsurpassable frontier, death. nothing could kill Jesus, not slander, not hatred, not envy, not even the cross.

and btw, in that little collection of booklets we call the Bible, the story doesn't end all flowery and pink either. Jerusalem and the temple are destroyed, early disciples are martyred in troves and everybody is aware the story of that Jesus guy and Mary and Mary Magdalene and Junia and all the others just has begun.

and it's clear it has to be written by us...

so regarding the recent world events yes PP Francis was heavily displeased (he talks about several of them in the very text we respond to here) but the Jesus thing gives us confidence and hope and justification to actively do something about it and to nudge the world into being a better place, for all of us.

that's how I think PP Francis meant what he said. and it's definitively how I see it.

Re: Pope Francis has died

#80

Post by jtrip »

mschuster91 wrote: post #52
regentbowerbird wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I follow your logic: - Israel has to eradicate Hamas as its existence is too much of a threat ("there is no alternative") - Hamas has embedded itself in the civilian population in Gaza so that they are indistinguishable - therefore, Israel must eliminate all Gazawis to guarantee its security So.. Will Israel kill millions to avenge the deaths of thousands?

> therefore, Israel must eliminate all Gazawis itself to guarantee its security Guess why they're keeping the Palestinians on a run: to ransack the entire place for weapons caches or Gaza Metro entrances. And that's not eliminating the Gazan population, by the way. I don't like it very much myself, but honestly, I do not see any other way of making sure Hamas does not rise up again. > Will Israel kill millions to ave…

I wonder what would have happened if the Americans had taken the same approach with the Iraqis and the Afganis. As someone said, if your enemy is carrying a baby, you don't punch him through the baby, you punch around it.

The staggering number of civilian casualties, deaths and literal executions that have been inflicted in the name of peace must give the acting populace a pause. In the name of humanity. The place is just rubble now. How much more security could one country want? No one else has done something like this since the first world war.

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