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Peru's ancient irrigation systems turned deserts into farms because of culture

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Re: Peru's ancient irrigation systems turned deserts into farms because of culture

#31

Post by Retric »

_aavaa_ wrote: post #29
agumonkey wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Meanwhile the average lifetime of modern infrastructure is what, 50 years ?

Part of the shorter lifespan is that our cities grow much faster. Why build infrastructure that last 200 years if it needs to be ripped up in 50 due to no longer meeting population demands?

When they transported 100% of the output of a spring there’s no need to update the infrared as a city grows there was no way to go past 100%. Dams have the same kind of limits and are regularly designed for 150+ year lifetimes. The Hoover Dam is just about to turn 90 and it’s likely to last another 100 years.

Quite a lot of the built environment is designed for 100+ year lifespans. When it isn’t there’s often very good reasons. It’s kind of amazing we get road bridges to last as long as they do when you consider the physical and chemical assault they’re constantly under all while trying to minimize weight and cost.

Re: Peru's ancient irrigation systems turned deserts into farms because of culture

#32

Post by typewithrhythm »

elif wrote: post #10
lurk2 wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There was a lot of insistence that the indigenous method was better, but no actual evidence that it was, nor even arguments as to why it would be (besides some vague allusions to it being “more flexible”). A lot of these noble savage narratives emerge from Latin American studies (history, archaeology, literature, etc.), particularly among Mexican and American-educated academics. There is truth to the idea that the co…

Can you point to an engineering feat in modern times which is still functional after hundreds of years of neglect? Even if academia is swinging to a "too respectful" position (which I would dispute), the lack of respect in your position is certain.

It seems like that's an impossibility, since you would need to find something in the current era that has been abandoned, rather than decommissioned...

There are a few examples that might fit, some earthworks, (tunnels, breakwaters, dams) and navigation markers come to mind (costal, but we also put retro reflectors on the moon).

Re: Peru's ancient irrigation systems turned deserts into farms because of culture

#33

Post by lurk2 »

notarobot123 wrote: post #22
lurk2 wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There was a lot of insistence that the indigenous method was better, but no actual evidence that it was, nor even arguments as to why it would be (besides some vague allusions to it being “more flexible”). A lot of these noble savage narratives emerge from Latin American studies (history, archaeology, literature, etc.), particularly among Mexican and American-educated academics. There is truth to the idea that the co…

The claim actually made was that culture, not just technology, is what made these irrigation systems successful. It's an interesting insight. Perhaps we can learn lessons from ancient cultures about how we might be able to efficiently manage our resources and achieve more with what is available. Is that so far fetched an idea?

I understand what you’re saying. I’m not sure that the distinction is all that important, however. Culture is just a form of technology.

> Perhaps we can learn lessons from ancient cultures about how we might be able to efficiently manage our resources and achieve more with what is available. Is that so far fetched an idea?

I don’t mean to imply that European models get everything right, but I think it would be far-fetched to bet against these models; historically, they’ve worked, and they’ve worked far better than any other model. The author does have a paper she linked to (which I missed on my first reading), so she might have a more compelling case to make than I originally assumed.

Re: Peru's ancient irrigation systems turned deserts into farms because of culture

#34

Post by typewithrhythm »

mstipetic wrote: post #7
syspec wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Very well stated. It's really weird to come across such articles, because they always add this mystic to these cultures that actually ends up coming across as the generic "in touch with nature" noble savage archetype

I mean, weren’t they? My kids can name more superheroes and Pokémon than animals and plants. My neighbors don’t notice when it doesn’t rain in March and April (when there should be 22 rainy days) and get annoyed when it does because it ruins the nice weather.

The disconnect between observation and understanding is the whole point; without western ideas like trends, records, and measurement, you can have no better understanding than, "sometimes wet, sometimes not".

The only part in tune with nature is that in bad periods the population dies back.

Re: Peru's ancient irrigation systems turned deserts into farms because of culture

#36

Post by like_any_other »

notarobot123 wrote: post #23
antics9 wrote: post #2

And no mention in the article of the ways of culture that managed the systems.

> The Moche and Chimu canal was tied to a complex labor system that synchronized cleaning and maintenance and prioritized the efficient use of water. There's also a link which points to more details but it doesn't look to be accessible: https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/american-antiquity/a...

That single sentence, which is the totality of the description given in the long and winding article, doesn't actually explain anything - the efficient use of water is the obvious goal of any irrigation system, especially in a desert. But how did it efficiently use water? The only hint of information is "synchronized cleaning and maintenance", and not a word on synchronized how or with what, or why this should help.

It's like describing how a car works with just "it is efficiently designed to help you travel faster, and uses skilled maintenance workers".

Re: Peru's ancient irrigation systems turned deserts into farms because of culture

#37

Post by xeromal »

elif wrote: post #9

The inca aqueduct network is seriously impressive even in the current age. Some of it almost a thousand years old and still transporting spring water miles with no pumps, without a civilization to maintain it.

IDK if it was inka but I was in a town called Ollataytombo or something like that for a week and they had this adorable little aqueduct that ran straight through town and people washed their clothes and whatnot in it. Loved how a lot of those mountain towns had them.

Re: Peru's ancient irrigation systems turned deserts into farms because of culture

#38

Post by Spooky23 »

tomrod wrote: post #20
Spooky23 wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you study this stuff in the americas it’s depressing as the Spanish in particular slaughtered people and culture so completely and unimpeded for so long. The evil and barbarism of this colonial episode is difficult to fathom. The 20th century horror show of slaughter ran in relatively short episodes… this imperial era ran for hundreds of years. Because you’re left with archeological evidence, whose interpretation…

The Spanish, the Portuguese, and most importantly, diseases that killed massive proportions of the population.

Diseases imo are empathized because they contribute to the body count and have an “act of god” nature to them. It’s an easier story than to describe a type of industrial genocide.

Read about the Mit'a system that was perverted by the colonial government to essentially improve the return on assets of the colony versus slaves or other means of cheap labor. It broke down the society of the native population completely and made it impossible for them to respond or react to disasters.

Re: Peru's ancient irrigation systems turned deserts into farms because of culture

#39

Post by lurk2 »

pxmpxm wrote: post #26
lurk2 wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There was a lot of insistence that the indigenous method was better, but no actual evidence that it was, nor even arguments as to why it would be (besides some vague allusions to it being “more flexible”). A lot of these noble savage narratives emerge from Latin American studies (history, archaeology, literature, etc.), particularly among Mexican and American-educated academics. There is truth to the idea that the co…

I imagine this is just a symptom of infallible argument/humanities departments rewarding group think narratives (colonialism = definionally ultimate evil) with grant money. Doesn't take long for academics to understand the game. Same thing with climate change, i've come across a pile of random definitely-not-climate-science papers (macre econ development divergence in hipanola, property rights in subsaharan africa, u…

> Same thing with climate change, i've come across a pile of random definitely-not-climate-science papers

The author describes herself in these terms:

> While I’m an archaeologist, I consider my research to be directed at the modern-day climate crisis. I investigate how resilient farming systems emerge and adapt to climate change and natural disasters. My fieldwork takes place on the north coast of Peru, where I study ancient irrigation in arid farming zones.

She doesn’t have any other social media profile so I don’t want to be overly cynical about her motives. Anyway, I think the climate angle is potentially huge in a lot of these fields.

There has been a trend in academia in the last few decades to focus on holistic analysis. This has led to a lot of academics trying to tie their research to disparate issues for both grant money and social status, but I also suspect that a lot of it is born of a genuine to come up with a grand unified theory of all the world’s problems. You see it with figures like Aldous Huxley around the mid-20th century (Huxley’s conclusion in his final novel, Island, is that “Nothing short of everything will do,”). The new wave that seems to have started in the 2010s has taken on a considerably more political bent (“Everything is political,” “Climate change is a product of white supremacy,” intersectional feminism, etc.).

These theories aren’t necessarily “wrong,” but the scholarship they produce is so bad that they are hard to take seriously.

Re: Peru's ancient irrigation systems turned deserts into farms because of culture

#40

Post by Spooky23 »

elif wrote: post #10
lurk2 wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There was a lot of insistence that the indigenous method was better, but no actual evidence that it was, nor even arguments as to why it would be (besides some vague allusions to it being “more flexible”). A lot of these noble savage narratives emerge from Latin American studies (history, archaeology, literature, etc.), particularly among Mexican and American-educated academics. There is truth to the idea that the co…

Can you point to an engineering feat in modern times which is still functional after hundreds of years of neglect? Even if academia is swinging to a "too respectful" position (which I would dispute), the lack of respect in your position is certain.

Modern is tough because it isn’t hundreds of years ago.

Around me, The High Bridge between Bronx and Manhattan was built pre Civil War and abandoned for decades and still standing (and now is use again). The Hell Gate Bridge was built by the NY Central Railroad and will probably outlast the US.

Lots of 19th century infrastructure will be around for centuries, if you look at the the path of the Erie and Lackawanna railroad routes, many bridges and other infrastructure will be standing hundreds of years from now. Lots of interstate infrastructure will function for hundreds of years in rural areas with low traffic, well beyond their engineered lifespan.

Stone is the most durable material and structures are overbuilt. Steel is much cheaper but requires maintenance.

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