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Peru's ancient irrigation systems turned deserts into farms because of culture

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21–30 of 82 posts

Re: Peru's ancient irrigation systems turned deserts into farms because of culture

#21
post #9

The inca aqueduct network is seriously impressive even in the current age. Some of it almost a thousand years old and still transporting spring water miles with no pumps, without a civilization to maintain it.

How doesn’t it just immediately become overgrown with vegetation?

Re: Peru's ancient irrigation systems turned deserts into farms because of culture

#22
post #3
post #2

And no mention in the article of the ways of culture that managed the systems.

There was a lot of insistence that the indigenous method was better, but no actual evidence that it was, nor even arguments as to why it would be (besides some vague allusions to it being “more flexible”). A lot of these noble savage narratives emerge from Latin American studies (history, archaeology, literature, etc.), particularly among Mexican and American-educated academics. There is truth to the idea that the co…

The claim actually made was that culture, not just technology, is what made these irrigation systems successful. It's an interesting insight.

Perhaps we can learn lessons from ancient cultures about how we might be able to efficiently manage our resources and achieve more with what is available. Is that so far fetched an idea?

Re: Peru's ancient irrigation systems turned deserts into farms because of culture

#23
post #2

And no mention in the article of the ways of culture that managed the systems.

> The Moche and Chimu canal was tied to a complex labor system that synchronized cleaning and maintenance and prioritized the efficient use of water.

There's also a link which points to more details but it doesn't look to be accessible: https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/american-antiquity/a...

Re: Peru's ancient irrigation systems turned deserts into farms because of culture

#24
post #10
post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There was a lot of insistence that the indigenous method was better, but no actual evidence that it was, nor even arguments as to why it would be (besides some vague allusions to it being “more flexible”). A lot of these noble savage narratives emerge from Latin American studies (history, archaeology, literature, etc.), particularly among Mexican and American-educated academics. There is truth to the idea that the co…

Can you point to an engineering feat in modern times which is still functional after hundreds of years of neglect? Even if academia is swinging to a "too respectful" position (which I would dispute), the lack of respect in your position is certain.

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Re: Peru's ancient irrigation systems turned deserts into farms because of culture

#25
post #9

The inca aqueduct network is seriously impressive even in the current age. Some of it almost a thousand years old and still transporting spring water miles with no pumps, without a civilization to maintain it.

Meanwhile the average lifetime of modern infrastructure is what, 50 years ?

Re: Peru's ancient irrigation systems turned deserts into farms because of culture

#26
post #3
post #2

And no mention in the article of the ways of culture that managed the systems.

There was a lot of insistence that the indigenous method was better, but no actual evidence that it was, nor even arguments as to why it would be (besides some vague allusions to it being “more flexible”). A lot of these noble savage narratives emerge from Latin American studies (history, archaeology, literature, etc.), particularly among Mexican and American-educated academics. There is truth to the idea that the co…

I imagine this is just a symptom of infallible argument/humanities departments rewarding group think narratives (colonialism = definionally ultimate evil) with grant money. Doesn't take long for academics to understand the game.

Same thing with climate change, i've come across a pile of random definitely-not-climate-science papers (macre econ development divergence in hipanola, property rights in subsaharan africa, unrelated culutral anthropoly etc) that allude to climate change as the key driver for the phenomenon observed. Clearly NSF and NIH wanted a very certain set of content published.

Re: Peru's ancient irrigation systems turned deserts into farms because of culture

#27
post #18
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you point to an engineering feat in modern times which is still functional after hundreds of years of neglect? Even if academia is swinging to a "too respectful" position (which I would dispute), the lack of respect in your position is certain.

> Can you point to an engineering feat in modern times which is still functional after hundreds of years of neglect? Off the top of my head: 1. Various aqueduct systems constructed by the Roman Empire are still in use today. 2. Persian qalats. 3. The Grand Canal in China. 4. Roman Roads 5. Hawaiian aquaculture systems 6. Aboriginal Australian fish traps Monumental architecture (e.g. the Pyramids) would make the list…

I am not sure of their operational status today, but in Medieval Western Europe, it was Carmelite communities who built aqueducts; even as they struggled to reform themselves during the Counterreformation, religious communities were undertaking large-scale engineering projects, because they controlled enough labor workforce, as well as technology and supply chains, to make that happen.

I would be unsurprised if the Carmelite Orders likewise invested significant maintenance in the old Roman construction, and learned from it as well.

Re: Peru's ancient irrigation systems turned deserts into farms because of culture

#28
> Ancient beliefs, behaviors and norms – what archaeologists call culture – were fundamentally integrated into technological solutions in this part of Peru in ancient times. Isolating and removing the tools from that knowledge made them less effective.

Ancient beliefs, behaviors and norms may have helped indigenous people perpetuate the solutions/technologies. Studying and understanding those may help people - today - to more quickly understand those solutions. But it's not like a thorough understand ing and application of these technologies - today - require us to "maintain technology and culture coupling" as this _archeologist professor_ implies.

The Spanish may have made wrong assumptions at first and failed to replicate the solution, but if we still see it being used today, that's because the colonist eventually learned - without perpetuating the culture (not to the same extend as the indigenous)

Re: Peru's ancient irrigation systems turned deserts into farms because of culture

#29
post #9

The inca aqueduct network is seriously impressive even in the current age. Some of it almost a thousand years old and still transporting spring water miles with no pumps, without a civilization to maintain it.

Meanwhile the average lifetime of modern infrastructure is what, 50 years ?

Part of the shorter lifespan is that our cities grow much faster. Why build infrastructure that last 200 years if it needs to be ripped up in 50 due to no longer meeting population demands?

Re: Peru's ancient irrigation systems turned deserts into farms because of culture

#30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, weren’t they? My kids can name more superheroes and Pokémon than animals and plants. My neighbors don’t notice when it doesn’t rain in March and April (when there should be 22 rainy days) and get annoyed when it does because it ruins the nice weather.

Why would your neighbors worry about rain, unless they are farmers or otherwise directly impacted? We've generally abandoned "being in touch with nature" for focusing on specific niches, and it's so incredibly more efficient that you can have large groups of people who focus on systems based on purely made up things, like sports. If they both needed the probability of rain three days from now, who do you think would…

I would say they would worry if they were even remotely in touch with nature.
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