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Peru's ancient irrigation systems turned deserts into farms because of culture

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Re: Peru's ancient irrigation systems turned deserts into farms because of culture

#11

Post by Jensson »

elif wrote: post #10
lurk2 wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There was a lot of insistence that the indigenous method was better, but no actual evidence that it was, nor even arguments as to why it would be (besides some vague allusions to it being “more flexible”). A lot of these noble savage narratives emerge from Latin American studies (history, archaeology, literature, etc.), particularly among Mexican and American-educated academics. There is truth to the idea that the co…

Can you point to an engineering feat in modern times which is still functional after hundreds of years of neglect? Even if academia is swinging to a "too respectful" position (which I would dispute), the lack of respect in your position is certain.

> the lack of respect in your position is certain.

Pointing out there are other possibilities isn't a lack of respect. If you believe A or B could have happened, you see someone say B happened, it is fair to say that A might have happened as well, that doesn't mean you believe B couldn't have happened.

Re: Peru's ancient irrigation systems turned deserts into farms because of culture

#12

Post by handwarmers »

elif wrote: post #10
lurk2 wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There was a lot of insistence that the indigenous method was better, but no actual evidence that it was, nor even arguments as to why it would be (besides some vague allusions to it being “more flexible”). A lot of these noble savage narratives emerge from Latin American studies (history, archaeology, literature, etc.), particularly among Mexican and American-educated academics. There is truth to the idea that the co…

Can you point to an engineering feat in modern times which is still functional after hundreds of years of neglect? Even if academia is swinging to a "too respectful" position (which I would dispute), the lack of respect in your position is certain.

perhaps "modern times" are modern because they adapt to the times, innovate, and replace what is old with what is new in pursuit of improvement.

Re: Peru's ancient irrigation systems turned deserts into farms because of culture

#13

Post by scythe »

elif wrote: post #10
lurk2 wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There was a lot of insistence that the indigenous method was better, but no actual evidence that it was, nor even arguments as to why it would be (besides some vague allusions to it being “more flexible”). A lot of these noble savage narratives emerge from Latin American studies (history, archaeology, literature, etc.), particularly among Mexican and American-educated academics. There is truth to the idea that the co…

Can you point to an engineering feat in modern times which is still functional after hundreds of years of neglect? Even if academia is swinging to a "too respectful" position (which I would dispute), the lack of respect in your position is certain.

You might look no further than Spain. There are dams built by the Romans which are still operating.

Of course nothing that's literally from the modern period is centuries old, but that's a tautology!

Re: Peru's ancient irrigation systems turned deserts into farms because of culture

#14

Post by bobmcnamara »

syspec wrote: post #4
lurk2 wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There was a lot of insistence that the indigenous method was better, but no actual evidence that it was, nor even arguments as to why it would be (besides some vague allusions to it being “more flexible”). A lot of these noble savage narratives emerge from Latin American studies (history, archaeology, literature, etc.), particularly among Mexican and American-educated academics. There is truth to the idea that the co…

Very well stated. It's really weird to come across such articles, because they always add this mystic to these cultures that actually ends up coming across as the generic "in touch with nature" noble savage archetype

It fits today's narrative better.

Re: Peru's ancient irrigation systems turned deserts into farms because of culture

#16

Post by luckylion »

mstipetic wrote: post #7
syspec wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Very well stated. It's really weird to come across such articles, because they always add this mystic to these cultures that actually ends up coming across as the generic "in touch with nature" noble savage archetype

I mean, weren’t they? My kids can name more superheroes and Pokémon than animals and plants. My neighbors don’t notice when it doesn’t rain in March and April (when there should be 22 rainy days) and get annoyed when it does because it ruins the nice weather.

Why would your neighbors worry about rain, unless they are farmers or otherwise directly impacted?

We've generally abandoned "being in touch with nature" for focusing on specific niches, and it's so incredibly more efficient that you can have large groups of people who focus on systems based on purely made up things, like sports.

If they both needed the probability of rain three days from now, who do you think would fare better, the ancients with their ancient wisdom, or your neighbors with modern sensors and meteorological models?

Re: Peru's ancient irrigation systems turned deserts into farms because of culture

#17

Post by luckylion »

elif wrote: post #10
lurk2 wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There was a lot of insistence that the indigenous method was better, but no actual evidence that it was, nor even arguments as to why it would be (besides some vague allusions to it being “more flexible”). A lot of these noble savage narratives emerge from Latin American studies (history, archaeology, literature, etc.), particularly among Mexican and American-educated academics. There is truth to the idea that the co…

Can you point to an engineering feat in modern times which is still functional after hundreds of years of neglect? Even if academia is swinging to a "too respectful" position (which I would dispute), the lack of respect in your position is certain.

> Can you point to an engineering feat in modern times which is still functional after hundreds of years of neglect?

Why would anyone build something only to neglect it? If one of the requirements was "it shall work for 500 years and never be maintained", then I'm sure you could get plenty of things designed and built for that requirement. It's just that it's a lot more expensive and not particularly useful, so nobody bothers.

Re: Peru's ancient irrigation systems turned deserts into farms because of culture

#18

Post by lurk2 »

elif wrote: post #10
lurk2 wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There was a lot of insistence that the indigenous method was better, but no actual evidence that it was, nor even arguments as to why it would be (besides some vague allusions to it being “more flexible”). A lot of these noble savage narratives emerge from Latin American studies (history, archaeology, literature, etc.), particularly among Mexican and American-educated academics. There is truth to the idea that the co…

Can you point to an engineering feat in modern times which is still functional after hundreds of years of neglect? Even if academia is swinging to a "too respectful" position (which I would dispute), the lack of respect in your position is certain.

> Can you point to an engineering feat in modern times which is still functional after hundreds of years of neglect?

Off the top of my head:

1. Various aqueduct systems constructed by the Roman Empire are still in use today.

2. Persian qalats.

3. The Grand Canal in China.

4. Roman Roads

5. Hawaiian aquaculture systems

6. Aboriginal Australian fish traps

Monumental architecture (e.g. the Pyramids) would make the list substantially longer.

> Even if academia is swinging to a "too respectful" position

The issue isn’t that they are attributing accomplishments to these civilizations, but instead that they are attributing these accomplishments to a way of knowing that is purportedly superior to that of the Europeans, which is just farcical when you consider that every modern technology has either been invented or scaled based on European models of thinking (e.g. the scientific method, mass production, free market capitalism, etc.)

Like I said, this is mostly just a product of Mexican and American humanities departments being populated by people with an axe to grind; there aren’t any STEM graduates in South America concerned with the mystical knowledge that their ancestors are purported to have possessed.

Re: Peru's ancient irrigation systems turned deserts into farms because of culture

#19

Post by scythe »

>While they may be identical in form, a Spanish canal isn’t a Moche canal.

>Spanish canals operated in a temperate climate and were managed by individual farmers who could maintain or increase their water flow. The Moche and Chimu canal was tied to a complex labor system that synchronized cleaning and maintenance and prioritized the efficient use of water. What’s more, Moche canals functioned in tandem with floodwater diversion canals, which activated during El Niño events to create niches of agricultural productivity amid disasters.

The second paragraph belies the previous: Spanish canals obviously were not "identical in form" when you can point out so many differences.

But it would also be pretty unreasonable to equate the early Spanish colonists, who were a few pirates and scoundrels that used iron and horses to conquer and control an empire where they were outnumbered by a thousand to one, to the modern Peruvians. Many lessons have been learned since then and modern Peru's political problems pale in comparison to the brutality of the sixteenth century.

The more likely reason that the situation is different today is just that Peru's population density (34 million in the country) and agricultural production vastly exceeds anything that existed under the Inca (maximum about 12 million across an empire that included parts of modern Ecuador and Bolivia). The Peruvians themselves are no stranger to attempting to copy the pre-colonial infrastructure practices, with mixed results. Of course if you grow less, you can better avoid running out of water. But this is no solace.

Re: Peru's ancient irrigation systems turned deserts into farms because of culture

#20

Post by tomrod »

Spooky23 wrote: post #5
lurk2 wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There was a lot of insistence that the indigenous method was better, but no actual evidence that it was, nor even arguments as to why it would be (besides some vague allusions to it being “more flexible”). A lot of these noble savage narratives emerge from Latin American studies (history, archaeology, literature, etc.), particularly among Mexican and American-educated academics. There is truth to the idea that the co…

If you study this stuff in the americas it’s depressing as the Spanish in particular slaughtered people and culture so completely and unimpeded for so long. The evil and barbarism of this colonial episode is difficult to fathom. The 20th century horror show of slaughter ran in relatively short episodes… this imperial era ran for hundreds of years. Because you’re left with archeological evidence, whose interpretation…

The Spanish, the Portuguese, and most importantly, diseases that killed massive proportions of the population.
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