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Decreased CO2 during breathwork: emergence of altered states of consciousness

nature.com

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Re: Decreased CO2 during breathwork: emergence of altered states of consciousness

#131

Post by maebert »

sentimentscan wrote: post #86
eigenschwarz wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does this help? I am a physicist with interest in these subjects and have always been wary of breathwork because of tetany and the following studies. What do experts closer to this field make of these? [1] "Brain Damage in Commercial Breath-Hold Divers" https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal... [2] "Do elite breath-hold divers suffer from mild short-term memory impairments?" https://cdnsciencepu…

Could you please explain more about the Ref[2], what does it mean beyond what is in article and how serious is it? "These findings suggest that breath-hold diving training over several years may cause mild, but persistent, short-term memory impairments" Can you tell more about recreational nitrous oxide and when does the "damage occur"? Is there the same thing with wim hof? (like for example with oximeter 80 Sp02 or…

Key difference here is that freediving is apnea-induced hypoxia, whereas breathwork is literally the opposite: hyperventilation-induced hyperoxia.

So while interesting as a study, I don't think it offers any insight into the kind of breathwork described in the nature study.

Re: Decreased CO2 during breathwork: emergence of altered states of consciousness

#132

Post by maebert »

jkingsman wrote: post #2

I've had this described to me as basically the combination of neuro+psychological effects of hyperventilation (respiratory alkalosis) in a peaceful/positive environment (as opposed to anxiety-attack-driven or etc.), plus the meditative effects of deep breathing, plus the meditative/brain-entrainment effects of rhythmic movement of a major central/core muscle (diaphragm). Together, those often cause euphoria, altered…

Very much on point.

That said when facilitate breathwork sessions i trade the peaceful hippie music for edm (and it actually works better because it encourages people to stay with the rhythm and get into the same mildly trance-like state you might get into while exercising to repetitive music).

Re: Decreased CO2 during breathwork: emergence of altered states of consciousness

#133

Post by maebert »

crummyglow wrote: post #74
jkingsman wrote: post #2

I've had this described to me as basically the combination of neuro+psychological effects of hyperventilation (respiratory alkalosis) in a peaceful/positive environment (as opposed to anxiety-attack-driven or etc.), plus the meditative effects of deep breathing, plus the meditative/brain-entrainment effects of rhythmic movement of a major central/core muscle (diaphragm). Together, those often cause euphoria, altered…

>Together, those often cause euphoria, altered states of consciousness, and cognitive shifts not too far off from psychedelics. It must vary between people, because no matter the environment if I breath too eager, whether on purpose or accidentally (like working out) it just becomes really hard to think, everything starts to tingle and all my muscles lock up. A very not-fun time. Also dangerous with weights.

The tingles and muscle cramps (tetany) are a normal byproduct (basically your neurons on your smallest muscles and under your skin get more excitable due to a molecular rube goldber machine set off by lower CO2 balance in your blood). It's uncomfortable, but unless you are suffering from epilepsy not dangerous and there's no lasting effects.

I did a longer writeup on the physiological effects here if you're interested: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1RuDv_E9osM1CCFWZMywMru9J...

Re: Decreased CO2 during breathwork: emergence of altered states of consciousness

#134

Post by kragen »

maebert wrote: post #130
eigenschwarz wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In a medical setting, where I am more familiar with it, tetany is never good. Personally it is also wildly uncomfortable. Perhaps it's fine and somehow pushing through it is part of the "experience", but if I want an altered consciousness I'll stick to a psilocybin-based retreat every 5-10 years and my meditation practice in between :D.

yeah in a medical setting it's usually never good, but afaik it's not the tetany that doctors are worried about about but rather what's causing it. I did a longer write-up on the physiological effects which you might find interesting: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1RuDv_E9osM1CCFWZMywMru9J...

Is this the same thing you linked upthread? At first glance the URL looks the same.

Re: Decreased CO2 during breathwork: emergence of altered states of consciousness

#135

Post by pizzafeelsright »

cbogie wrote: post #124
FrojoS wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can somewhat simulate it yourself. Lie down, do a push up, then jump up to your feet, upright, arms raised (Burpee). Repeat in rapid succession twelve times, then immediately shut your mouth and close your nose with your hand. Hold it. Close your eyes and imagine you are under water and don‘t know how long it will take till you can resurface. You will feel an immediate urge to breath, a very unpleasant feeling in…

> Lie down, do a push up, then jump up to your feet, upright, arms raised (Burpee). Repeat in rapid succession twelve times, then immediately shut your mouth and close your nose with your hand. Hold it. Close your eyes and imagine you are under water and don‘t know how long it will take till you can resurface. you forget, ‘put a blindfold on and tie your leg to a doberman’s leash then fall down 3-6 flights of stairs’…

A safe way to get a similar disorienting experience is hold your breath under water while in a tight ball and have someone spin you on every direction and reverse it until you can't stand it and then wait another ten seconds.

I recall being swallowed by a wave and while under for only a short period i thought it was annoying not knowing when I'd return to the surface.

Re: Decreased CO2 during breathwork: emergence of altered states of consciousness

#136

Post by lukas099 »

zemvpferreira wrote: post #120
patall wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or just join the foiling community and go 40% wave riding. 80+% if pure down winding. Entree is a little more expensive but you save on not having to travel exotic locations (or not at all).

Everyone else in the water will hate you though. Everyone. Even the sea janitors are above you in social standing.

Why?

Re: Decreased CO2 during breathwork: emergence of altered states of consciousness

#137

Post by collingreen »

cgio wrote: post #64
collingreen wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Atheism isn't specifically "a goal of rationality" it's just not believing in a deity (usually because of a rejection of "trust me bro, now pay your tithing" style pitches). I expect for most people the choice to believe or not believe stories with no evidence is orthogonal to the choice of an altered mind.

It looks like you put atheism and agnosticism in the same boat. There’s a certain belief, trust and conviction to lack of a deity in atheism. Not in agnosticism. That state of mind is orthogonal to belief is mostly true. On the other hand , there is also a motivation to explain away religious experience as physiological process, which explains the overlap in group membership.

My understanding is atheism is not believing in a deity (a - without, theism - belief in deity) and agnosticism is about not knowing (sometimes not knowing if it's possible to know). It gets messy because plenty of folks play games with the words like "clearly I don't believe the major, self-contradicting religions but maybe there is some deity out there somehow that had an influence beyond 'natural processes'" or that Einstein quote about calling the beauty of physics and the universe "god".

Similar to what you said about me, I think you're perhaps putting faith/religious dogma and spirituality/holding things sacred in the same boat. I think having awe or wonder or a feeling of being part of something bigger is again orthogonal to belief in a particular god. I don't even think religion is the dividing line here - religion and ritual exists all over without an overarching deity.

I liked the underlying idea to what you said about motivation to explain away religious experience as physiological process; I think there is something interesting there. I expect this is a result of what people already believe, not a cause, but I like the concept of how people take in new information and default to directing it to "knowable, let's figure it out" or some version of "unknowable".

tl;dr - not believing in a god seems separate from spirituality and religious experience. Theist and atheist are extremely high level (and one dimensional) labels and there is a LOT of diverse (and overlapping) belief and experience under each.

Re: Decreased CO2 during breathwork: emergence of altered states of consciousness

#138

Post by endlessvoid94 »

elif wrote: post #117
endlessvoid94 wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just a different type of fun. I find avalanche training to have a similar effect for backcountry. For some it's sobering, for others it's terrifying.

Yes my wife and I were watching a group of hikers one time and we both looked at each other and talked about how none of them had even seen a demo on using an ice axe. It felt like walking into a kitchen and seeing the chefs juggling knives

Yep, and sadly it's a typical story in the backcountry, sometimes ending tragically.

Re: Decreased CO2 during breathwork: emergence of altered states of consciousness

#139

Post by samus »

FollowingTheDao wrote: post #118
sergioisidoro wrote: post #75

Personal anecdote: I do freediving, so CO2 tolerance training is common, and I've done it on and off. Basically you do breath holds to train your body to get used to high leves of CO2. I've found that brief high C02 levels are very good for activation, and to get out of a lethargic state. I don't know if a mix of cortisol and vasoconstriction and dive reflex triggered by the CO2, but I feel like it's a tool I have on…

Is it healthy to get into a near death experience just to get something done? Why is it "bad" to be in a lethargic state? Have you ever asked yourself these questions?

You don't get near death experiences just by holding breath, not even close. You might eventually be able to make yourself pass out though, so never ever practice long breath hold under circumstances where a loss of consciousness would be a danger, e.g., while driving, close or in water, close to streets or high drops or stairs, etc.

Lethargic states stop you from doing what you want to do and to manage your time effectively. Allocate time being in such states for resting or sleeping hours.

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