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What my stroke taught me (2017)

nautil.us

41–50 of 75 posts

Re: What my stroke taught me (2017)

#41
post #13
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel the same way about having somebody constantly chatting in my head :) I'd assume for both of us it's mostly fear of the unknown.

How would you think through complex scenarios otherwise? Like: "How does the current US president influence global welfare?" (relevant, but rather trite, I know). Genuinely curious how you could form an opinion or at least analyze the question without verbalizing the ensuing self-conversation in your mind. Much (abstract) thought is informed by language.

You convert the language statement into semantic space. That's where you do the theorizing and then you convert it back. I can't think in text space. It's way too slow and I very much suck at it.

It's hard to see how this works with such a complex question though. By its nature it's actually impossible to put into words. It's my theory that we all think like this, because it's literally impossible to think "in language", but some people need to have it as some type of security blanket and some don't.

Every time someone says they have some inner monologue I can ask where this comes from. Your inner monologue also needs a source and that can't be language again. You cannot source all thought you have about this question just from those words alone. Your mind is making all types of connections that might eventually be convertable into words, but are themselves absolutely not verbal.

Re: What my stroke taught me (2017)

#42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When you consider a paragraph, perhaps to write, how do you plan it before writing? When you reflect on something embarrassing, how could it have gone differently? How do you imagine "I should have done this differently?" Imagine arguing with a friend, now a clone of yourself, now hold two options in your mind (what to have for dinner) and assign a clone to argue for each. Is it possible? You must get this all the ti…

I don’t get this all the time or get into it because most people don’t understand or dismiss it. I just hope I can explain well enough. When I write it’s almost always flow of consciousness style and I make a lot of mistakes. In online or chat kind of settings it makes me look a little dumber than I am, I mix words up on the spot a lot, it’s probably the closest thing to whatever would be my “internal” narrative, als…

> I often argue with myself anyway.

> I am constantly in “arguments” with my own assumptions.

This is usually what best describes "having an internal monologue".

Do you ever imagine yourself or other people saying hypothetical things?

Re: What my stroke taught me (2017)

#43
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How would you think through complex scenarios otherwise? Like: "How does the current US president influence global welfare?" (relevant, but rather trite, I know). Genuinely curious how you could form an opinion or at least analyze the question without verbalizing the ensuing self-conversation in your mind. Much (abstract) thought is informed by language.

You convert the language statement into semantic space. That's where you do the theorizing and then you convert it back. I can't think in text space. It's way too slow and I very much suck at it. It's hard to see how this works with such a complex question though. By its nature it's actually impossible to put into words. It's my theory that we all think like this, because it's literally impossible to think "in langua…

Sometimes, I wonder if those with an inner monologue focus on that process as being their consciousness, because they often use it to self-reflect on their own thinking process. It's that meta-reflection that people seem to consider their consciousness.

For those of us without an inner monologue, perhaps it's similar, just with a different way of self-reflecting.

I'm in the weird position of having memories of me as a child with a detailed inner monologue, and memories of post-stroke me without an inner monologue. The old memories feel like someone else's memories. I even called them xenomemories for a few years after my stroke because they didn't feel like they belonged to me.

In those old memories, I thought of my inner monologue as "my thoughts" and "my consciousness," but I have no memory of what was going on beneath that level. The words just seemed to flow in a way that made sense to child me. It was like young me needed words to keep thoughts stepping forward in an endless chain of reflection and reasoning via language. Young me didn't value anything except the build artifacts (the words), so all the rest of my thinking process never made it into my memories.

It was the effects of losing those words that made me so hyperaware of everything else going on in my brain, and I had to build up a new understanding of who "I" even was.

All the recent talk about the potential for LLMs to "think" in latent space instead of words feels so very similar to my own experiences, going from words with well-defined meanings to something less sharp, but with more room for nuance. Your mention of thinking in semantic space feels right to me based on the way I think through complex problems today. Thinking in words is exceptionally slow and clumsy for me.

In a sense, it feels like I traded in a binary computer for an analog (or quantum) one, and just like computers, I would imagine each style of thought has its strengths and weaknesses.

It would certainly be nice if my word compiler wasn't so slow and buggy, though. It makes it a lot harder to leave permanent notes for myself or communicate with others.

Re: What my stroke taught me (2017)

#44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know it's bad to say this - lile telling someone who is ill that they are not - but I cannot believe that someone truly has no inner monologue and at the same is capable of expressing complex ideas in writing or speech. What IS there then, if it's not quiet like the author describes? Could it be a lack of introspection? Have you been examined by any kind of specialist or is it self diagnosed?

This is kicking the can down the road. I can ask you: what happens before you have "inner monologue"? Nothing? Words just pop into your head? How do you decide what to "inner monologue"? How can you have "complex inner monologue" without inner monologue discussing the coming inner monologue? We're the same, but I just skip the inner monologue. Now I'm typing and I have very little idea what comes next. I review it af…

Do you ever "imagine", however vague that is, another person asking you a question or saying a statement? Or yourself making a statement or question to someone else?

What I'm actually challenging, is that people exist that can e.g. write coherent paragraphs like these comments, with having absolutely no inner monologue, ever. I don't buy that there is "another inner language of thoughts", of the same or greater complexity than our known language, which has not been discovered or described at all.

(Warning: Bad Analogy incoming) You could rewrite all the software of a modern computer in assembly. And the computer actually runs machine code. However you could not have reached that mass of assembly code on your own, without replicating the complexity of the concepts of higher programming languages.

I don't doubt that there are people whose inner monologue is quieter, slower, less frequent, or whatever. I doubt that an adult can not have any inner monologue at all, and function "normally". Much like the author described.

Re: What my stroke taught me (2017)

#45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know it's bad to say this - lile telling someone who is ill that they are not - but I cannot believe that someone truly has no inner monologue and at the same is capable of expressing complex ideas in writing or speech. What IS there then, if it's not quiet like the author describes? Could it be a lack of introspection? Have you been examined by any kind of specialist or is it self diagnosed?

The two sibling comments have great answers. For me, it feels like a very intuitive process. I've described it to others in the past as feeling like I'm constructing a sort of cognitive atom graph, where memories, emotions, facts, and concepts are the nodes, and the strengths of connection between these are the edges. To be clear, I'm not actually picturing a graph in my head; it's more that it feels similar in a lot…

> "My favorite flowers are roses" is a highly pruned version of what I was actually thinking.

In this scenario, would the phrase "My favorite flowers are roses" have materialized in your mind?

Or if this scenario would be: you have been asked "What are your favorite flowers?", and you would just speak out those words to the other person without rehearsing in your head, would you be capable of recreating that scenario at another time, including the person asking you and you answering, in your head?

Re: What my stroke taught me (2017)

#46
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't you ever think to yourself when waking up 'time to wake up' ? Or when you see someone you don't like 'oh here is that motherfucker' ? I mean the inner voice isn't like a deep discussion between you and you, its spontaneous stuff you just wouldn't say out loud. I have a hard time believing some people don't have it.

Language is just a way of encoding semantic meaning. If your brain already knows that it is time to wake up or that it hates that guy, what's the point of encoding a description of that feeling into spoken language and replay it? That sounds inefficient. I have an inner monologue, but most of the time (and especially when I want to work fast), I "disable" it. Then my mind simply works in the "meaning space", where it…

Language can encode information very densely. There is no point in describing "hate that guy". But it can be very efficient to have an inner monologue of "I hate that guy, but I must greet him friendly, or else I will be in trouble". If you'd just let yourself guide by feelings, you would be angry, or afraid, or genuinely happy to see that guy you hate.

We already know how to encode and decode it language, because we must communicate with others. It could be useful to also use this code internally, to create very complex scenarios fast.

Re: What my stroke taught me (2017)

#47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You convert the language statement into semantic space. That's where you do the theorizing and then you convert it back. I can't think in text space. It's way too slow and I very much suck at it. It's hard to see how this works with such a complex question though. By its nature it's actually impossible to put into words. It's my theory that we all think like this, because it's literally impossible to think "in langua…

Sometimes, I wonder if those with an inner monologue focus on that process as being their consciousness, because they often use it to self-reflect on their own thinking process. It's that meta-reflection that people seem to consider their consciousness. For those of us without an inner monologue, perhaps it's similar, just with a different way of self-reflecting. I'm in the weird position of having memories of me as…

Your perspective is unique given your circumstances. I can't imagine how it feels to operate in a different mode having traces of the previous one. Very interesting.

This issue is very complex. One of the thorny bits is that what you remember and what is germane are very different things. As humans we operate under the laws of psychology which necessitate interesting but ultimately quite inexplicable things like an "I" to somehow "anchor" our thoughts. I believe investigations into the nature of this "I" are still ongoing (after a few millennia). Perhaps different personalities can use different types of hooks to anchor this "I". Perhaps some are inclined to use language for this and others not.

Sometimes I wonder if it's just lack of introspection: the ones with inner monologue having accepted too soon that that's all there is to their minds and neglected to look underneath this chatter. They can see that this chatter must have a source as well. Surely they'll see this can't be another level of chatter, because I'll ask the question again and again. Ultimately all human cogitation is without source[1] and can't be anything other than purely spontaneous.

Anyway, I'm rambling. Good luck to you!

[1] "without source" meaning: not able to be observed by the subject itself

Re: What my stroke taught me (2017)

#48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The two sibling comments have great answers. For me, it feels like a very intuitive process. I've described it to others in the past as feeling like I'm constructing a sort of cognitive atom graph, where memories, emotions, facts, and concepts are the nodes, and the strengths of connection between these are the edges. To be clear, I'm not actually picturing a graph in my head; it's more that it feels similar in a lot…

> "My favorite flowers are roses" is a highly pruned version of what I was actually thinking. In this scenario, would the phrase "My favorite flowers are roses" have materialized in your mind? Or if this scenario would be: you have been asked "What are your favorite flowers?", and you would just speak out those words to the other person without rehearsing in your head, would you be capable of recreating that scenario…

> In this scenario, would the phrase "My favorite flowers are roses" have materialized in your mind?

That depends on the situation. I thought I'd mentioned it in this thread, but apparently I'd mentioned it on the post about aphasia a few days ago. I don't think in words anymore except when I'm either conversing with or thinking about conversing with someone else.

If I was just thinking to myself about my favorite things, that phrase would never pop into my head at all. It wouldn't even occur to me to even try putting it into words in that situation.

> Or if this scenario would be: you have been asked "What are your favorite flowers?", and you would just speak out those words to the other person without rehearsing in your head, would you be capable of recreating that scenario at another time, including the person asking you and you answering, in your head?

Yes, I'm autistic (AuDHD), so I often replay social interactions in my head over and over and try to think of better responses than I was able to come up with on the spur of the moment, and this, necessarily, involves thinking in words.

So, while my natural mode of thinking post-stroke is now word-free, I am still capable of thinking in words and do so when I'm thinking about something I may need to communicate to someone else soon.

Immediately post-stroke, of course, I was incapable of thinking in words at all, but I rebuilt that capability over time. It definitely does not feel natural to me, still, to the point I sometimes stutter or pause for awkward seconds to find the right words if I'm suddenly asked to talk about a new topic I haven't rehearsed. I do have a safe subset of English that I try to stay within to avoid any potential stumbling.

I still think in my non-word way the vast, vast majority of the time, then translate to words, unless I'm saying something that's become an automatic response. If someone says to me, "How are you?" I immediately respond, "I'm doing well, thanks. How are you today?" all in words. But if I'm posed a novel question like yours, one that I've never considered before, I have to carefully find a way to translate my thoughts to words before I can answer.

Re: What my stroke taught me (2017)

#49
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Language is just a way of encoding semantic meaning. If your brain already knows that it is time to wake up or that it hates that guy, what's the point of encoding a description of that feeling into spoken language and replay it? That sounds inefficient. I have an inner monologue, but most of the time (and especially when I want to work fast), I "disable" it. Then my mind simply works in the "meaning space", where it…

Language is just a way of encoding semantic meaning - this is a perfect explanation and im going to use it from now on, thanks. yea this is like me too. curious, did you start reading at a very early age? I started around 3. this is what I personally think it is. It’s not like I dont have the ability to hear a narrative in my head, I just dont do it. I’ve suspected that since I began reading so early, it has somethin…

> curious, did you start reading at a very early age? I started around 3

I did! I also learnt to read at 3. Your observation was really impressive.

I've never thought about it being the cause of my weird quirks, I thought it was actually another consequence/symptom of being wired a bit different, but maybe you are right. Have you ever met anyone else who learnt to read early? Do they also behave like that?

I don't know if I'm in the spectrum (I suspect I do, but I don't want to know). In any case, if I do, then I'm also a functioning one.

> if you’re literally sounding out every word in your head you’d never be able to keep up with whatever it is I do

Another possibility is that they overestimate how much they use their inner monologue without realizing. For example, I really doubt they think "time to move the left leg, now the right leg, now the left..." whenever they walk. Maybe they just don't enter into that "mode" as often as us

Re: What my stroke taught me (2017)

#50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sometimes, I wonder if those with an inner monologue focus on that process as being their consciousness, because they often use it to self-reflect on their own thinking process. It's that meta-reflection that people seem to consider their consciousness. For those of us without an inner monologue, perhaps it's similar, just with a different way of self-reflecting. I'm in the weird position of having memories of me as…

Your perspective is unique given your circumstances. I can't imagine how it feels to operate in a different mode having traces of the previous one. Very interesting. This issue is very complex. One of the thorny bits is that what you remember and what is germane are very different things. As humans we operate under the laws of psychology which necessitate interesting but ultimately quite inexplicable things like an "…

It certainly feels strange. The two epochs almost feel like past life and current life, with an unexpected and ineffable bridge between the two. I remember thinking in words, but it feels like someone else was doing that, because I certainly wouldn't do it that way today. It definitely makes me constantly question exactly who "I" am.

> Sometimes I wonder if it's just lack of introspection...

Maybe? I know I didn't introspect deeper than my words when I was a child, but that doesn't necessarily mean an adult doesn't introspect about it.

I asked my husband about it because he told me he has a running stream of words most of the day except when he's relaxing. He is aware that he has a layer beneath the words, but still thinks of the words as "his thoughts" and the layer beneath as "just his subconscious," that bubbled up things like emotions or memories in service of his thoughts.

So at least N=1, an inner monologuer did consider that his words weren't all of his thoughts, but he still considered the non-verbal stuff less important than his words. It was as if all he valued was the crystalized thought, not the underlying processes.

> Good luck to you!

Thank you! And to you, as well.

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