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Adipose tissue retains an epigenetic memory of obesity after weight loss

nature.com

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Re: Adipose tissue retains an epigenetic memory of obesity after weight loss

#201

Post by e40 »

amonon wrote: post #156
e40 wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For me, sugar was the reason I couldn't lose weight. I got a CGM (continuous glucose monitor) and got my blood sugar under control, and with very little effort I lost a lot of weight. I use 90% cacao Lindt to control my sweet tooth. 1/2 the bar has 4g of sugar, and I consume it over hours. It also has the side effect of reducing my hunger. If you eat much of 90% chocolate, it makes you feel nausea. The trick is to pu…

This also speaks to another point, when trying to lose weight: you must find new things to enjoy.

So true. I've done this very often:

- See some goodies my wife bought (for herself or me).

- Thinks about having my 90% Lindt later/next day.

- Walks away.

Re: Adipose tissue retains an epigenetic memory of obesity after weight loss

#202

Post by e40 »

nfg wrote: post #192
e40 wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For me, sugar was the reason I couldn't lose weight. I got a CGM (continuous glucose monitor) and got my blood sugar under control, and with very little effort I lost a lot of weight. I use 90% cacao Lindt to control my sweet tooth. 1/2 the bar has 4g of sugar, and I consume it over hours. It also has the side effect of reducing my hunger. If you eat much of 90% chocolate, it makes you feel nausea. The trick is to pu…

I’d be interested to hear more here - what CGM did you buy? What was your process for monitoring?

The Stelo. 2 for $99. Oddly, it shipped from Amazon but Amazon doesn't sell them.

The app is subpar on iOS, but if you give Apple's Health app permission, you can get more data in there. Graphs that have absolute numbers. I think they reason their app doesn't give absolute values (for historical values, they give the current value only), is because it's not a calibrated device. It can't be used to control an insulin pump, for that reason.

Re: Adipose tissue retains an epigenetic memory of obesity after weight loss

#203

Post by zemvpferreira »

testing22321 wrote: post #136
bsder wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fat cells only turn over about 20% per year. You basically need to maintain a reduced weight for 5 years before the fat cells "forget" the higher weight. If you come off it before that 5 years are up, yeah, you are probably expected to bounce back somewhat. You might not need to be on GLP-1 forever, but you might need to be on it longer than people currently think.

> If you come off it before that 5 years are up, yeah, you are probably expected to bounce back somewhat. It would only be possible to bounce back if you eat excess calories once off the GLP-1.

Obviously, but the 'obesogenic memory' that this article is about is a real problem. Calories don't manifest out of thin air but for a plethora of reasons they're much much easier to overconsume as a formerly fat person.

Re: Adipose tissue retains an epigenetic memory of obesity after weight loss

#204

Post by darksaints »

meindnoch wrote: post #82

Well, yeah. Adipocytes multiply when you get fat. But when you lose weight, they don't apoptose, they just shrink in volume by giving up their lipid stores.

I kinda went down a rabbit hole a while back with certain treatments that can kill adipocytes, as there's actually some significant research backing both heat-generating and cold-generating treatments. They do kill fat cells, and they are flushed out of the body. But people who undergo such treatments do not lose fat. At best, these devices can reshape your fat, pulling it out of one area and distributing it more evenly in other areas.

The problem is that when you kill an adipocyte, it releases all of its triglycerides, which are then free to move around the blood stream. But when blood triglyceride levels are high and there isn't significant oxidation, other metabolic processes are triggered to start to store them. So you kill an adipocyte, release the triglycerides, which get reabsorbed into still living adipocytes, which now get engorged and then multiply again, replacing the fat cells that have been killed.

After learning quite a bit about these processes, I think these devices might actually be useful, not for losing fat, but by eliminating this sort of fat memory. In other words, they should be used after significant weight loss, because adipocytes are relatively empty and externally triggered apoptosis can kill the cells without releasing significant quantities of triglycerides which can be reabsorbed and trigger adipocyte mitosis. I think this would effectively reset that person to a state as if they had never been fat in the first place. Thoughts?

Re: Adipose tissue retains an epigenetic memory of obesity after weight loss

#205

Post by delecti »

loeg wrote: post #188
Aurornis wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Similar adaptions occur in muscle. The extent of new muscle fiber development (hyperplasia) is debated, so there are multiples factors influencing how muscle retains some memory of past strength ability. Once you’ve reached a level of physical strength it’s easier to return to that level in the future. This has been a topic of debate in the sports world because past anabolic steroid use could therefore carry benefits…

> This has been a topic of debate in the sports world because past anabolic steroid use could therefore carry benefits into the future long after the athlete has stopped using the steroid. Similar advantage is conveyed to athletes who had elevated (~male) testosterone levels in the past, even if they subsequently take blockers / go on HRT to ~female hormone levels.

Though that also comes with male-pattern skeletal growth. So unless your body still has elevated/male-level T levels, you're carrying around a disproportionately heavy skeleton which negates the advantage. If the net effect were actually an advantage, you'd expect the womens' sports which are allowing trans women to be dominated by them, but they really just aren't.

Additionally, trans women on HRT typically have their T suppressed below standard cis women levels, and thus well below the levels of cis women athletes (the top levels in any sport by definition tending to be outliers in performance).

Re: Adipose tissue retains an epigenetic memory of obesity after weight loss

#206

Post by loeg »

taeric wrote: post #195
loeg wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People that have had larger muscles tend to have an easier time building them back up, as well. Yes, although I don't know whether that's epigenetic.

Fair. I'm now curious to know what the different forms of memory things can have. I confess I assumed they were all inter-related.

The mechanism I've heard of (heard proposed?) for skeletal muscle is that muscle cells retain the additional nuclei (myonuclei) developed during strength training, even during detraining periods. Then subsequently re-developing strength is easier because you've still got all of those nuclei.

Re: Adipose tissue retains an epigenetic memory of obesity after weight loss

#207

Post by meindnoch »

Ifkaluva wrote: post #179
meindnoch wrote: post #82

Well, yeah. Adipocytes multiply when you get fat. But when you lose weight, they don't apoptose, they just shrink in volume by giving up their lipid stores.

Is this true? When I looked into this issue it seemed the medical consensus is that fat cells are mostly constant throughout life, and weight gain happens through adipocyte hypertrophy.

Look up adipogenesis.

Re: Adipose tissue retains an epigenetic memory of obesity after weight loss

#208

Post by meindnoch »

darksaints wrote: post #204
meindnoch wrote: post #82

Well, yeah. Adipocytes multiply when you get fat. But when you lose weight, they don't apoptose, they just shrink in volume by giving up their lipid stores.

I kinda went down a rabbit hole a while back with certain treatments that can kill adipocytes, as there's actually some significant research backing both heat-generating and cold-generating treatments. They do kill fat cells, and they are flushed out of the body. But people who undergo such treatments do not lose fat. At best, these devices can reshape your fat, pulling it out of one area and distributing it more eve…

Interesting!

Why can't we just remove the triglycerids from the blood before they trigger adipogenesis? Basically we need a form of dialysis.

Re: Adipose tissue retains an epigenetic memory of obesity after weight loss

#209

Post by loeg »

delecti wrote: post #205
loeg wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This has been a topic of debate in the sports world because past anabolic steroid use could therefore carry benefits into the future long after the athlete has stopped using the steroid. Similar advantage is conveyed to athletes who had elevated (~male) testosterone levels in the past, even if they subsequently take blockers / go on HRT to ~female hormone levels.

Though that also comes with male-pattern skeletal growth. So unless your body still has elevated/male-level T levels, you're carrying around a disproportionately heavy skeleton which negates the advantage. If the net effect were actually an advantage, you'd expect the womens' sports which are allowing trans women to be dominated by them, but they really just aren't. Additionally, trans women on HRT typically have the…

> Though that also comes with male-pattern skeletal growth. So unless your body still has elevated/male-level T levels, you're carrying around a disproportionately heavy skeleton which negates the advantage.

The male-pattern skeletal growth isn't necessarily a disadvantage. E.g., narrower hips and stronger bones is likely an advantage in running.

> If the net effect were actually an advantage, you'd expect the womens' sports which are allowing trans women to be dominated by them, but they really just aren't.

My understanding is the opposite. In fact, if it wasn't the case, there is basically no reason to have separate mens and womens fields.

Re: Adipose tissue retains an epigenetic memory of obesity after weight loss

#210

Post by jjani »

Aurornis wrote: post #182
ben7799 wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't remember exactly what I was listening to, maybe some kind of NPR podcast. But the doctor was mentioning that none of the influencers influencing young people to try T and Steroids (which is rampant right now) are ever mentioning that you are on a ticking clock to infertility as soon as you start this stuff. Some people can regain their fertility but it might take years, and some people are going to be permane…

Testicular atrophy and HPT axis suppression is a thoroughly documented side effect of TRT and steroids. Even beginner bodybuilders know that taking steroids will crush their natural testosterone production. They can kind of bring it back by taking short courses and using certain medications after the cycle, but most discover that some permanent damage is being done with each cycle. There are two problems with framing…

> Honestly, they don't care. I skim the testosterone subreddits occasionally and many people brag and joke about how small their testicles are.

Wouldn't surprise me at all if most of that was coping behavior.

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