Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

I speak at Harvard as it faces its biggest crisis since 1636

scottaaronson.blog

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

71–80 of 115 posts

Re: I speak at Harvard as it faces its biggest crisis since 1636

#71

Post by mgkimsal »

bediger4000 wrote: post #69
mgkimsal wrote: post #41

For anyone who hasn't read the letter... https://www.harvard.edu/research-funding/wp-content/uploads/... Trump administration is both demanding a end to all DEI programs, and mandating "viewpoint diversity". "Every department or field found to lack viewpoint diversity must be reformed by hiring a critical mass of new faculty within that department or field who will provide viewpoint diversity; every teaching unit fou…

"Viewpoint diversity" looks like it means something other than a literal interpretation. Without a definition of that phrase, it would appear that "abandoning DEI" would conflict with "viewpoint diversity". Give what "freedom of speech absolutism" meant in practice, I'm guessing that "viewpoint diversity" is a demand for primacy of far-right views, but I could certainly be wrong

> I'm guessing that "viewpoint diversity" is a demand for primacy of far-right views, but I could certainly be wrong.

I can't really see it as a call for anything else. Conservatives often self-select out of attending universities in the first place, so there's already a perceived imbalance.

Re: I speak at Harvard as it faces its biggest crisis since 1636

#72

Post by ThrowawayR2 »

EA-3167 wrote: post #66
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #17

"...once the government did take away funding and present its ultimatum—completely outside the process specified in Title VI law—Columbia’s administration quickly agreed to everything asked, to howls of outrage from the left-leaning faculty. Yet despite its total capitulation, the government has continued to hold Columbia’s medical research and other science funding hostage, while inventing a never-ending list of add…

The shame IMO is that this is going to further polarize people along the lines of "Yay, stick it to those rich schools" and "Omg, this is literally the second coming of Hitler." It would be lovely to have a broad conversation about why it makes no sense for the government to play HR manager for universities, and ALSO ask why billions in tax money is perennially given to ultra-wealthy, exclusive universities who are o…

> "...more than capable of finding opportunities for profit in the private sector..."

You actually want research institutions to be even more patent-happy moneygrubbers than they already are today? That's going to keep even more technologies and drugs unaffordable without licensing and hold back progress.

Re: I speak at Harvard as it faces its biggest crisis since 1636

#73

Post by mcculley »

amazingamazing wrote: post #56
mcculley wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please elaborate. The Federal government funds various research programs. Are you saying that the Federal government should not pay any universities for research? Or that universities that have an endowment should not be paid for research? Or something else?

Private universities, yes. Public colleges can receive the funding that would've otherwise gone to private colleges.

This seems a dumb way to allocate Federal research funds. We, the taxpayers, should not choose the best university for these projects, but limit ourselves to only private universities? Is this what people mean by DEI? That we use some criteria other than merit when allocating resources?

Re: I speak at Harvard as it faces its biggest crisis since 1636

#74

Post by JumpCrisscross »

kombine wrote: post #51
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Attributing this to people you disagree with on the issue is a telltale sign of bad faith I've been in rooms in New York with very smart people who argued exactly this. That the founding of Israel was a mistake and that we should poof it away. (Something about decolonization usually meanders its way in there.) They're a minority. Like the people who want to relocate Palestinians from Gaza are, to my knowledge, a mi…

> Like the people who want to relocate Palestinians from Gaza are, to my knowledge, a minority. Not sure what "minority" you are talking about, because this is actually unfolding right in front of our eyes over the past 18 months with the backing of the most powerful country on the planet. Talking about this as if its some fringe idea is disingenuous.

> this is actually unfolding right in front of our eyes

One, it's not currently happening. It's being actively discussed. But to my knowledge, mass expulsion has not (yet) happened.

Two, many things happen despite being only popular with a minority. I haven't seen polling around Abrego Garcia's de facto kidnapping and illegal detention in El Salvador, but I doubt more than the baseline 20% or so of nutters (a) understand what's going on and (b) support it.

Re: I speak at Harvard as it faces its biggest crisis since 1636

#75

Post by JumpCrisscross »

kombine wrote: post #64
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have an example of student being called an antisemite by Aaronson?

People like Aaronson are smart enough not to directly say that. Here is a Berkeley professor likening student protests to Kristallnacht: https://www.facebook.com/alyosha.efros/posts/pfbid0UapTQuH6p... And completely forgetting to mention there is a Jewish block literally in the photo they took themselves. Obviously, they never mention the actual violence by the Zionist counter-protesters, which in my experience far e…

> People like Aaronson are smart enough not to directly say that

Doesn't that completely undermine the claim that students were being slandered as anti-Semites?

Like, yes, I'd prefer people thought nice things all the time. But if they're thinking something I consider mean, I'm happier with them keeping it to themselves. And if they won't, I prefer they call out a group versus attacking random individuals within it for being a member of that group.

Re: I speak at Harvard as it faces its biggest crisis since 1636

#77

Post by red020 »

thro3838484848 wrote: post #26

Just a few decades ago US had quotas, how many Jews could study on university. Isaac Asimov could not be medical doctor, and become writer for this reason! Even today Harward is doing everything it can, to have a less Jews, they are not preferred minority! Please spare me of this selective "antisemitism"!

[dead]

Re: I speak at Harvard as it faces its biggest crisis since 1636

#78

Post by jltsiren »

EA-3167 wrote: post #66
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #17

"...once the government did take away funding and present its ultimatum—completely outside the process specified in Title VI law—Columbia’s administration quickly agreed to everything asked, to howls of outrage from the left-leaning faculty. Yet despite its total capitulation, the government has continued to hold Columbia’s medical research and other science funding hostage, while inventing a never-ending list of add…

The shame IMO is that this is going to further polarize people along the lines of "Yay, stick it to those rich schools" and "Omg, this is literally the second coming of Hitler." It would be lovely to have a broad conversation about why it makes no sense for the government to play HR manager for universities, and ALSO ask why billions in tax money is perennially given to ultra-wealthy, exclusive universities who are o…

The fundamental question is about basing research funding on merit: Should government funding go to the best researchers with best ideas, regardless of which university they are affiliated with? Rich elite universities can attract many of the best researchers, because of the resources and prestige they offer. And those researchers then win competitive grants from the government.

Some argue that research grants should be deliberately spread wider in order to fund a wider range of ideas. Instead of considering each funding call in isolation and awarding grants to the top 10-20% of applications, maybe existing funding should be considered a negative merit, regardless of its source. Or maybe there should be stricter limits on how many grants a single PI can have at the same time.

Re: I speak at Harvard as it faces its biggest crisis since 1636

#79

Post by user982 »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #38
jampekka wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the dogmatic belief that the State of Israel (and only Israel, among all nations on earth) should be eradicated Attributing this to people you disagree with on the issue is a telltale sign of bad faith. But nevertheless, nice to still see him speaking out, and in general he does sometimes discuss opposing views in a bit better faith.

> Attributing this to people you disagree with on the issue is a telltale sign of bad faith I've been in rooms in New York with very smart people who argued exactly this. That the founding of Israel was a mistake and that we should poof it away. (Something about decolonization usually meanders its way in there.) They're a minority. Like the people who want to relocate Palestinians from Gaza are, to my knowledge, a mi…

> They're a minority. Like the people who want to relocate Palestinians from Gaza are, to my knowledge, a minority.

"Approx. 80% of Israelis support Trump's plan to relocate Gazans - survey

"Less than 15% of Israelis believe Trump's plan is "immoral," including 54% of Arab respondents and only 3% of Jewish israelis."

- https://www.jpost.com/international/article-840500

Re: I speak at Harvard as it faces its biggest crisis since 1636

#80

Post by sorcerer-mar »

mgkimsal wrote: post #70
sorcerer-mar wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point is that there's neither as much money nor as much flexibility as people imagine there to be. We shouldn't be flippant about these attacks because these institutions have what appear to be (but functionally are not really) giant war chests.

I'm not flippant about it, and do not take the suggestion of using some endowment money for 'non-specified purposes' lightly. I don't think it should be completely off the table. The Trump administration has relied on people and companies responding to their aggression and violation of norms within the bounds of normalcy. None of this is normal. We are being gish galloped with attacks on all fronts of societal norms…

I don't think we disagree on any of this.

I was taking issue with this framing: "I don't think the institution will run out of money any time soon. It's a $50bn prop trading firm with a university attached."

Post reply on HN