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I speak at Harvard as it faces its biggest crisis since 1636

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Re: I speak at Harvard as it faces its biggest crisis since 1636

#51

Post by kombine »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #38
jampekka wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the dogmatic belief that the State of Israel (and only Israel, among all nations on earth) should be eradicated Attributing this to people you disagree with on the issue is a telltale sign of bad faith. But nevertheless, nice to still see him speaking out, and in general he does sometimes discuss opposing views in a bit better faith.

> Attributing this to people you disagree with on the issue is a telltale sign of bad faith I've been in rooms in New York with very smart people who argued exactly this. That the founding of Israel was a mistake and that we should poof it away. (Something about decolonization usually meanders its way in there.) They're a minority. Like the people who want to relocate Palestinians from Gaza are, to my knowledge, a mi…

> Like the people who want to relocate Palestinians from Gaza are, to my knowledge, a minority.

Not sure what "minority" you are talking about, because this is actually unfolding right in front of our eyes over the past 18 months with the backing of the most powerful country on the planet. Talking about this as if its some fringe idea is disingenuous.

Re: I speak at Harvard as it faces its biggest crisis since 1636

#52

Post by mrandish »

I think Scott's take here is fair because he acknowledges that most of the Ivy League did (and largely still does) have huge problems with adequately protecting Jewish students and perspectives, and more broadly, intellectual viewpoint diversity of any kind. And prior administrations did push regulatory and funding requirements and policies to support DEI and other hot point issues to an extent that was clearly agenda biased.

But, as Scott observes, unfortunately the current administration has gone far beyond trying to correct those excesses to a more neutral or balanced median and is, instead, doing the same things (and much worse) that "the other guys" did, just in the opposite direction. That makes the current administration just as wrong as the prior ones were. Only now we're hearing much more about it because the current agenda-driven biases are ones that >85% of academia doesn't hold themselves.

Re: I speak at Harvard as it faces its biggest crisis since 1636

#53

Post by rofo1 »

mgkimsal wrote: post #39
rofo1 wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not up to date on all details, but how exactly is it overreach? It's a good question whether government should give money (9bn but I could be wrong) for research, but lets put that aside for now. (who determines what "research" is this? it could be quantum mechanics, or it could be "gender studies") Curious as to why do you think this is an overreach.

https://www.harvard.edu/research-funding/wp-content/uploads/... Did you read the demands? "By August 2025, the University must adopt and implement merit-based hiring policies, and cease all preferences based on race, color, religion, sex, or national origin throughout its hiring, promotion, compensation, and related practices among faculty, staff, and leadership. Such adoption and implementation must be durable and d…

You say that they are "demands". As if the taxpayers should automatically give billions to Harvard, no matter what Harvard does. That's insanity (to me at least).

"Harvard has in recent years failed to live up to both the intellectual and civil rights conditions that justify federal investment."

"The United States has invested in Harvard University’s operations because of the value to the country of scholarly discovery and academic excellence. But an investment is not an entitlement. "

So basically, they are claiming that the Federal government will not invest money until Harvard gets rid of the communist/socialist rhetoric. As far as I can see, they are free to burn their money to fund communist ideals. Who says that they deserve taxpayers money by default?

It's amazing how communist problems always end with: "you eventually run out of other people's money"

Re: I speak at Harvard as it faces its biggest crisis since 1636

#54

Post by like_any_other »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #45
like_any_other wrote: post #35

Glad Harvard finally decided attacks against academia have gone too far. It wasn't too far when scientists were forced to make an ideological oath to diversity to get hired [1,2], when they were hired primarily based on adherence to that ideology [3,4,5], when they were told by major scientific publications to avoid or simply not publish studies that might question that ideology [6,7], when they disavowed studies bas…

Which of your links apply to Harvard? The first is in respect of the University of California.

> attacks against academia

None of which Harvard opposed, and Harvard itself scored abysmally in support of (or rather tolerance of) free speech [1]. Harvard is merely engaging in self-defense, not defense of any higher principles.

[1] https://unherd.com/newsroom/harvard-ranked-as-americas-worst...

Re: I speak at Harvard as it faces its biggest crisis since 1636

#55

Post by JumpCrisscross »

like_any_other wrote: post #54
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which of your links apply to Harvard? The first is in respect of the University of California.

> attacks against academia None of which Harvard opposed, and Harvard itself scored abysmally in support of (or rather tolerance of) free speech [1]. Harvard is merely engaging in self -defense, not defense of any higher principles. [1] https://unherd.com/newsroom/harvard-ranked-as-americas-worst...

> None of which Harvard opposed. Harvard is merely engaging in self-defense, not defense of any higher principles

Weird line, but sure. Whatever. Point is the hypocrisy you imply does not exist.

Re: I speak at Harvard as it faces its biggest crisis since 1636

#56

Post by amazingamazing »

mcculley wrote: post #22
amazingamazing wrote: post #6

Private colleges shouldn't be taking public money to begin with. Hopefully this ends with colleges having their (private college) tax exempt status revoked. Anyone who's been to Massachusetts knows how much real estate Harvard (and MIT, and BU, and Boston College, etc, etc.) owns. Why should they be tax exempt? End it now. Also, Trump's demands are silly and not even internally consistent.

Please elaborate. The Federal government funds various research programs. Are you saying that the Federal government should not pay any universities for research? Or that universities that have an endowment should not be paid for research? Or something else?

Private universities, yes. Public colleges can receive the funding that would've otherwise gone to private colleges.

Re: I speak at Harvard as it faces its biggest crisis since 1636

#57

Post by amazingamazing »

xnx wrote: post #25
amazingamazing wrote: post #6

Private colleges shouldn't be taking public money to begin with. Hopefully this ends with colleges having their (private college) tax exempt status revoked. Anyone who's been to Massachusetts knows how much real estate Harvard (and MIT, and BU, and Boston College, etc, etc.) owns. Why should they be tax exempt? End it now. Also, Trump's demands are silly and not even internally consistent.

> Hopefully this ends with colleges having their tax exempt status revoked. Only if we do churches at the same time.

What do churches have to do with this article or my comment? Do churches receive billions of funding from the government?

Re: I speak at Harvard as it faces its biggest crisis since 1636

#58

Post by JumpCrisscross »

rofo1 wrote: post #53
mgkimsal wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://www.harvard.edu/research-funding/wp-content/uploads/... Did you read the demands? "By August 2025, the University must adopt and implement merit-based hiring policies, and cease all preferences based on race, color, religion, sex, or national origin throughout its hiring, promotion, compensation, and related practices among faculty, staff, and leadership. Such adoption and implementation must be durable and d…

You say that they are "demands". As if the taxpayers should automatically give billions to Harvard, no matter what Harvard does. That's insanity (to me at least). "Harvard has in recent years failed to live up to both the intellectual and civil rights conditions that justify federal investment." "The United States has invested in Harvard University’s operations because of the value to the country of scholarly discove…

> they are claiming that the Federal government will not invest money until Harvard gets rid of the communist/socialist rhetoric

They're changing the terms of the trade after a contract was signed. At the very least, this is the U.S. defaulting on commitments.

That said, I broadly agree with you--the U.S. shouldn't be funding Harvard. And the public shouldn't have a say--or continuing economic stake, the way we do with publicly-funded research--in what Harvard does and produces.

Re: I speak at Harvard as it faces its biggest crisis since 1636

#59

Post by amazingamazing »

unethical_ban wrote: post #18
amazingamazing wrote: post #6

Private colleges shouldn't be taking public money to begin with. Hopefully this ends with colleges having their (private college) tax exempt status revoked. Anyone who's been to Massachusetts knows how much real estate Harvard (and MIT, and BU, and Boston College, etc, etc.) owns. Why should they be tax exempt? End it now. Also, Trump's demands are silly and not even internally consistent.

Are you suggesting that the government should not fund research, or that only state-operated universities should get government funding? Furthermore, none of this has to do with an ideological take on "private universities and public funds". This is about Trump controlling the speech and behavior of every institution he can, through defunding and through blackmail.

> only state-operated universities should get government funding

Yes.

> Furthermore, none of this has to do with an ideological take on "private universities and public funds". This is about Trump controlling the speech and behavior of every institution he can, through defunding and through blackmail.

That is bad too, yes.

Re: I speak at Harvard as it faces its biggest crisis since 1636

#60

Post by darkwater »

amazingamazing wrote: post #6

Private colleges shouldn't be taking public money to begin with. Hopefully this ends with colleges having their (private college) tax exempt status revoked. Anyone who's been to Massachusetts knows how much real estate Harvard (and MIT, and BU, and Boston College, etc, etc.) owns. Why should they be tax exempt? End it now. Also, Trump's demands are silly and not even internally consistent.

Do tou really think the goal of the Trump administration is to prioritize public universities?
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