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You'll never be Chinese

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131–140 of 188 posts

Re: You'll never be Chinese

#131
The author seems to be stuck in a country which is rising after coming from a country which had already risen. The path to success is no cake walk, its tiring and it causes fatigue.

As as Indian this article to me on many counts also looks like the story of India. The west will find it difficult to digest but the desperation to grow forces a person to go out of his way to do and achieve things people in the west in all the comfort cannot imagine in wildest of their dreams.

>>Modern day mainland Chinese society is focused on one object: money and the acquisition thereof.

What other dreams do you think poor people have?

>>The domestic Chinese lower education system does not educate. It is a test center. The curriculum is designed to teach children how to pass them.

The issue in Asian countries which are developing is most have only one shot at doing something in life. Study your ass off or perish, there is no social security- Your parents work hard to give you a decent education and you work hard in a once in a life time opportunity to do something in life. There is no other alternative, you don't have money to do business. The national infrastructures, license problems, corruption and other stuff won't give you a second shot at business.

There fore unlike in the west where 'chase your dreams' makes sense, here it doesn't.

>>Success in exams offers a passport to a better life in the big city. Schools do not produce well-rounded, sociable, self-reliant young people with inquiring minds. They produce winners and losers. Winners go on to college or university to take “business studies.” Losers go back to the farm or the local factory their parents were hoping they could escape.

As I said before, opportunities are at a premium here. This is difficult to understand if you come from US and settle down here. You will just never get why there is such a mad rush for opportunities.

>>The pressure makes children sick. I speak from personal experience. To score under 95 per cent is considered failure. Bad performance is punished. Homework, which consists mostly of practice test papers, takes up at least one day of every weekend. Many children go to school to do it in the classroom. I have seen them trooping in at 6am on Sundays. In the holidays they attend special schools for extra tuition, and must do their own school’s homework for at least a couple of hours every day to complete it before term starts again. Many of my local friends abhor the system as much as I do, but they have no choice. I do. I am lucky.

Whoa this is nothing. In India while I did by second year of pre university college, I practically slept only for 3 hours a day for the whole year. Before going to the exam I cried. Because my whole years worth of hard work depended on this one exam! During my engineering college days, I've spend endless nights studying without sleeping. Same with school.

As a software engineer I've gone a whole week without sleep. And that was perfectly acceptable. My dad used to tell me, to consider myself lucky to even deserve the opportunity to go and work at a software company. Hence anything was acceptable.

>>An option is to move back to a major Chinese city and send our children to an expensive international school—none of which offer boarding—but I would be worried about pollution, and have to get a proper job, most likely something to do with foreign business to China, which my conscience would find hard.

Good schooling is shit expensive. Hence parents almost always send their kids to a local mediocre school. But warn them sternly to study very hard or they will have no future.

>>China does not nurture and educate its youth in a way that will allow them to become the leaders, inventors and innovators of tomorrow, but that is the intention.

Thats for the next generation. The first generation, like my Dad's. They had only one goal- 'First get your kids somewhere, let them take it from there on.'

The author is clearly stuck in a massive cultural conflict in his brain. He wants China to remain where it was, a mediocre country compared to his original homeland. He doesn't understand the cultural pressures of families in developing nations. He doesn't understand those countries are trying to go to where, his homeland is now. He clearly belongs to his native culture, where bulk of the growth work is already done, and people are just building on top of it. Where you can get to enjoy foreign vacations, passion based work environments, freedom to not worry about basic stuff like food, clothing and shelter.

Re: You'll never be Chinese

#132

As Confucius said, 三人行,必有我師焉 ("wherever three persons are walking, my teacher is surely among them"). This is a very interesting article for an American who has lived in east Asia for two three-year stays (mostly in Taiwan) and who has been learning the Chinese language since 1975. Much of what has been said about China in the first decade of the twenty-first century reminds me very much of what was said about Japan…

> Native-born Americans like me who have lived in east Asia are APPALLED at the wasted opportunities that United States schools have with their lavish resources to provide a truly world-class education. United States schools do not do as badly as they possibly could, but they also don't do as well as they reasonably could be expected to do. I know this is a popular refrain about American education, but it's only a ha…

Public schools are not that poorly funded. Here's an example, Detroit, not the richest place, right?

Average spending per pupil: almost $16K per pupil http://dailycaller.com/2011/05/10/city-leaders-think-tankers...

Average spending per pupil in private schools: $10,045 http://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d10/tables/dt10_063.asp Average spending in public schools: $10,259

I wouldn't call schools that spend 1.5 times national average per pupil "underfunded", unless there are some data that all schools are terribly underfunded and funding them more would change something. And public schools routinely spend more than private schools too: http://www.cato.org/publications/policy-analysis/they-spend-... http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/04...

So I do not think financing is the main problem. You can always find ways to spend more money, but first it needs to be shown that the money is the problem, and it is far from obvious, as the data does not show that lavish spending leads to improvement in results.

Re: You'll never be Chinese

#133

"blowing your nose in a handkerchief is disgusting." I am curious, where in the world is that acceptable (especially during lunch) and where disgusting..

I live in the US. I find it moderately disgusting. However, sneezing is acceptable when done down and away from the table.

Re: You'll never be Chinese

#134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Companies still provide housing? Are you serious? That went out with the 90s in the big cities! And even then, how many people actually work for the government or an SOE qualify for this housing provided by the company? Its very easy to judge China through a western perspective; you just say "it was judged through a western perspective." Judging is always relative to a perspective and is useful to evaluate your situa…

I'm not taking offense in a patriotic stance. I'm offended because it's plain incorrect. I don't know if we're arguing the same thing, but I'm saying looking at China from a western perspective is misleading, and leads you to formulate judgments that are based on slanted information. It's much like how the average citizen believes he's knowledgeable about the economy. It's still commonplace for companies to provide h…

PSB registration does not take two minutes, literally or figuratively. I was at the 出入境 for about an hour two weeks ago. This one visit was one of many visits. Yesterday, I went to register at the local 派出所. I was the only person there. They processed all my documents (three passports) in one hour.

I should amend my statement above: PSB registration does not take two minutes for me. You are fortunate that it only takes two minutes for you (I am assuming you mean figuratively, though if you are being literal I am even more envious).

China is a big country. There are places in China where the administration is very efficient and effective. Most places are not. I say this from personal experience and from the experience of others who don't live in large, developed cities. Some generalizations are accurate, but like any generalization, the veracity may vary from your own local experience.

Re: You'll never be Chinese

#135
post #131

The author seems to be stuck in a country which is rising after coming from a country which had already risen. The path to success is no cake walk, its tiring and it causes fatigue. As as Indian this article to me on many counts also looks like the story of India. The west will find it difficult to digest but the desperation to grow forces a person to go out of his way to do and achieve things people in the west in a…

>>The author is clearly stuck in a massive cultural conflict in his brain. He wants China to remain where it was, a mediocre country compared to his original homeland. He doesn't understand the cultural pressures of families in developing nations. He doesn't understand those countries are trying to go to where, his homeland is now. He clearly belongs to his native culture, where bulk of the growth work is already done, and people are just building on top of it. Where you can get to enjoy foreign vacations, passion based work environments, freedom to not worry about basic stuff like food, clothing and shelter.

What quote do you base this off of? This is your conjecture based upon a mostly negative article about China. I live in China so I can concur with most of the author's experiences if not his opinions. What I got from the author's article was this:

I loved living in China. There is an inequity in China regarding money and power. I wish the Chinese people something better.

Is it a cultural conflict to want justice and then to be frustrated when the legal system swings the other way without explanation? Your conclusion that the author wants China to remain where it is show a lack of comprehension for both the content of the article as well as the pathos meant to be evoked.

Here is what he wrote in his conclusion:

>>There are tens, maybe hundreds, of thousands of mainland Chinese who “follow” such people too, and there must be countless more like them in person, trying in their small way to make China a better place. One day they will prevail. That’ll be a good time to become Chinese. It might even be possible.

These aren't the words of a man, though embittered, that wants to see China remain where it was. These aren't the musings of one that hasn't spent time in the culture and has no understanding of it (though his understanding, as is yours is colored by your own personal background). These are hopes of a man that wants to see China move forward.

Re: You'll never be Chinese

#136
post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> most of the people in Beijing are migrant workers who do not have hukou; they are basically excluded from the community That's not so simple. They belong to their own community of migrant workers and most are able to get community support when needed. They also become acclimated to Beijing and it is not unlikely their offspring will be Beijingers. I have a direct experience of that, our nanny is a typical migrant w…

Not true. Children of migrant workers don't get hukou just for being born in Beijing. You basically have people who have never been anywhere outside of Beijing who have no hope of getting hukou; they are basically a multi-generational second class citizenry. The hutongs are about the only place in Beijing where you can find high concentrations of Beijing'ers. Anywhere outside of the second ring road tends to be mostl…

I wasn't talking about getting the hukou, I was talking about becoming Beijinger

Re: You'll never be Chinese

#137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Native-born Americans like me who have lived in east Asia are APPALLED at the wasted opportunities that United States schools have with their lavish resources to provide a truly world-class education. United States schools do not do as badly as they possibly could, but they also don't do as well as they reasonably could be expected to do. I know this is a popular refrain about American education, but it's only a ha…

The link you kindly shared is a lousy analysis of the overall issue, http://www.nationalreview.com/agenda/255997/are-tino-sananda... as several commenters here on HN have mentioned to other persons who have shared the link, and anyway doesn't address the nub of my statement, which is that the United States, by OBSERVATION OF ACTUAL PRACTICE, is underperforming in providing lessons to young people in school, http://ww…

The analysis in the first link you posted has flaws as well. The author does not deny that when you break down the US scores by ethnicity, Asian-Americans do as well as other Asians, European-Americans as other Europeans, etc. He bases a large part of his argument on the contention that the US should actually be doing better than it is right now - that "we can do more" - simply because we have a higher GDP per capita.

One example he cites is that the mean PISA score for Asian-Americans is 534, while the mean PISA score for Japan, South Korea, Singapore, and Hong Kong is 533. The author argues that since our GPP per capita is much higher than Japan / South Korea (and especially the Asian-American GDP per capita, which is probably slightly higher than the overall US number, given that Asian-American median income is about $1-2k higher than White median income), we should be doing better than we are now. This ignores, of course, that even this alleged observable underperformance must then be shared by Singapore and Hong Kong as well, which have higher GDP per capita (adjusted for purchasing power) than even the US (Singpore has $10k higher GDP per capita, in fact), but do only equally as well as US Asian-Americans / Japan / South Korea.

The author also argues that it the explosive growth of private tuition services are propping up US test scores, completely oblivious to the fact that the pervasiveness and ubiquity of private tuition services in many Asian countries (especially South Korea) make US private tuition services look like day care centers.

Finally, link-dumping 3 articles and a book that we'd have to purchase on Amazon really does not add much.

Re: You'll never be Chinese

#138
post #94
post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do pity the guy for moving back to the UK, expecting some kind of blessing of freedom. Perhaps he has been gone too long to realize the extend to which our police state now reaches. In the past 15 years, we have reintroduced star chambers, armed the police, failed to prosecute anybody in the police force for murdering innocent citizens, introduced 'precrime' arrests to stifle dissent, and we're extraditing British…

Is there an English-speaking melting pot that doesn't have these problems?

New Zealand?

Re: You'll never be Chinese

#139

Bitterly biased. The China that the author describes is not the China I've seen. Housing prices may be high, but he neglects to mention that it's common for companies to provide housing to their employees. Yes, people will ask you about your money - but that's culture, and it's not impolite. There are a lot of untruths in his article, but it's too long to pick apart. A big one, though, is about appreciation for forei…

> I'll end by saying: it's hard to judge China through a western perspective. I have respected a lot of your contributions to this site and have historically been impressed by your comments, but this one I can't accept. It essentially boils down to a courtier's reply, except that there is no way to gain the experience necessary to comment according to your criterion.

I was a little distracted when I wrote this, I admit; it probably wasn't the most thought-out statement. I don't mean you should adopt another perspective (that'd be silly).

You're right - it's inescapable that we need some perspective on which to judge and formulate opinions, but sometimes we just need to take things in passively, and think--without forming opinions.

I'm not entirely sure whether this makes sense, or whether it just seems like philosophical nonsense.

Re: You'll never be Chinese

#140
post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not true. Children of migrant workers don't get hukou just for being born in Beijing. You basically have people who have never been anywhere outside of Beijing who have no hope of getting hukou; they are basically a multi-generational second class citizenry. The hutongs are about the only place in Beijing where you can find high concentrations of Beijing'ers. Anywhere outside of the second ring road tends to be mostl…

I wasn't talking about getting the hukou, I was talking about becoming Beijinger

And if you can't get access to social services in Beijing, are you really a beijinger? Where do these kids go to school, take the gaokao, have a higher chance to get into PKU or qinghua? You aren't a full beijinger without hukou. That we can get hukou for a few of our college new hires every year is a big recruiting advantage for my company.
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