You'll never be Chinese • Hacker News Board

Re: You'll never be Chinese

#91

Post by dasil003 » Fri, Aug 10, 2012, 10:28 PM UTC

tokenadult wrote: post #73

As Confucius said, 三人行，必有我師焉 ("wherever three persons are walking, my teacher is surely among them"). This is a very interesting article for an American who has lived in east Asia for two three-year stays (mostly in Taiwan) and who has been learning the Chinese language since 1975. Much of what has been said about China in the first decade of the twenty-first century reminds me very much of what was said about Japan…

Interesting, my roommate back in Minneapolis a decade ago is married to a Taiwanese woman. The big difference is they didn't meet in Asia—it was at Nye's if I recall.

Re: You'll never be Chinese

#92

Post by superchink » Fri, Aug 10, 2012, 10:30 PM UTC

mapster wrote: post #87

superchink wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you kidding me?

outrage from "superchink" :/

Not outrage; a simple request for clarification—which was received gracefully.

Re: You'll never be Chinese

#93

Post by rubashov » Fri, Aug 10, 2012, 10:41 PM UTC

superchink wrote: post #84

ppadron wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a quote from Full Metal Jacket.

Ohhhh. So, yes. I knew there was a perfectly reasonable explanation.

Well it's also somewhat true, and as a quotation an interesting commentary on American ideals which I hold. Whereas the inverse is clearly not.

I'm a little surprised people around here are thrown into conniptions by the mere use of the word "gook". What are you, a bunch of faggots?

Re: You'll never be Chinese

#94

Post by natrius » Fri, Aug 10, 2012, 11:00 PM UTC

sparkie wrote: post #77

fring0 wrote: post #7

It's funny to see more of these articles about China where westerners get their panties in a bunch when they find themselves in a similar situation most other people have been in with respect to the west. I should write a similar article about my American/European dream. I hope the Chinese are able to take criticism better than the west. Westerners can't get over their superiority complex.

I do pity the guy for moving back to the UK, expecting some kind of blessing of freedom. Perhaps he has been gone too long to realize the extend to which our police state now reaches. In the past 15 years, we have reintroduced star chambers, armed the police, failed to prosecute anybody in the police force for murdering innocent citizens, introduced 'precrime' arrests to stifle dissent, and we're extraditing British…

Is there an English-speaking melting pot that doesn't have these problems?

Re: You'll never be Chinese

#95

Post by jisaacstone » Fri, Aug 10, 2012, 11:04 PM UTC

mcantelon wrote: post #60

jisaacstone wrote: post #22

Take a moment and conciser how a similar piece, written of the United states around the turn of the last century, might read. Remember the 'roaring 20s?' Materialistic society, ambivalence about foreign affairs, widespread corruption, distrust of foreigners. A Chinese who owned a tea shop in a small town may well have to beg for a renewed lease, yes? Well, China is not the United States, but lets put things in perspe…

>Sorry, yes, they don't play fair. But I am hopeful at the turn of the next century China will be as prosperous and egalitarian as my own United States of America. Why would a one-party system evolve into being egalitarian? The US has devolved into being more or less ruled by lobbyists. The egalitarian phase in the US was largely due to workers being economically valuable and hence useful to maintain physically and m…

False. Factories are having increasing difficulty in retaining workers and are therefore having to either raise wages, improve conditions, or bully them into submission. Supply and demand, no?

Demand is currently high.

Things are not great for workers, but there is hardly a surplus anymore.

Re: You'll never be Chinese

#96

Post by jisaacstone » Fri, Aug 10, 2012, 11:07 PM UTC

w1ntermute wrote: post #88

jisaacstone wrote: post #22

Take a moment and conciser how a similar piece, written of the United states around the turn of the last century, might read. Remember the 'roaring 20s?' Materialistic society, ambivalence about foreign affairs, widespread corruption, distrust of foreigners. A Chinese who owned a tea shop in a small town may well have to beg for a renewed lease, yes? Well, China is not the United States, but lets put things in perspe…

> It seems the Conservatives are back in power Are you sure about that? With the downfall of Bo Xilai and the Chongqing model, it seems to have put the progressives, such as Wang Yang (the Guangdong party chief), in an advantageous position.

No, I am not sure as I don't follow closely anymore. I heard about the downfall of Bo but hadn't really considered the consequences. Mostly I was speaking of the climate when I left in 2008

Re: You'll never be Chinese

#97

Post by jisaacstone » Fri, Aug 10, 2012, 11:12 PM UTC

jamesaguilar wrote: post #90

getsat wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Post hoc ergo propter hoc, no?

I think that's exactly the point of the comment you're responding to. He's not saying that, "China is going up, therefore depression incoming." Instead he's saying, "The reasoning, 'US also had a period like this, therefore China will be OK,' is false."

yes it is false but that was not my reasoning. I was merely trying to draw parallels between a time people are probably familiar, saying that there is no use comparing modern China to a developed country. It is not a modern country, but it is so "rich" and "powerful" people (like the OP) get that idea in their head and become inevitably disillusioned.

Perhaps I could have made a parallel to Brazil or Thailand?

No analogy is complete.

Re: You'll never be Chinese

#98

Post by seanmcdirmid » Fri, Aug 10, 2012, 11:16 PM UTC

lionhearted wrote: post #17

Hmm. A strange article. A mix of really good points soaked in bitterness. I spend the bulk of my time in Beijing, Taipei, and Ulaanbaatar (Mongolia). My take is slightly different. Well, a lot is true. The property thing, definitely. The state industry takeovers is scary; you have to get a sense for what industries they don't mind foreigners in, and which they do. Media? Yeah, you don't want to own a media company in…

As mentioned in many posts, your history is a bit off.

Also, my overtime work in Beijing doesn't make my girlfriend happy; she understandably gets very angry that I never make it home for dinner or put a strong wall between work and life, this is very important in Chinese culture and I feel violations are actually more acceptable in American culture. I guess everyone is different, its impossible to generalize.

The concept of "community" breaks down very quickly in China. Sure, if you are a native Beijinger, you go to the park and do the dances in the square (assuming you are old or bored), but most of the people in Beijing are migrant workers who do not have hukou; they are basically excluded from the community. How can a community thrive when you exclude 60 or 70% of the people? Granted, 40% is still a lot of people, but something is very rotten in the society.

Everything said in the article is plausible and probably true. Once you really get embedded in Chinese society, you are as exposed to unfairness and corruption as a local is, without the benefit of being treated as a local, and it makes sense right? You can escape if you want, they don't have much leverage over you.

Re: You'll never be Chinese

#99

Post by seanmcdirmid » Fri, Aug 10, 2012, 11:20 PM UTC

swampthing wrote: post #46

lionhearted wrote: post #17

Hmm. A strange article. A mix of really good points soaked in bitterness. I spend the bulk of my time in Beijing, Taipei, and Ulaanbaatar (Mongolia). My take is slightly different. Well, a lot is true. The property thing, definitely. The state industry takeovers is scary; you have to get a sense for what industries they don't mind foreigners in, and which they do. Media? Yeah, you don't want to own a media company in…

Completely agree with your synopsis in the first sentence. The article would have been stronger had he given a more thoughtful analysis to the differences between China and say, America. As it is, he points out a lot of characteristics of China and the Chinese that may be more extreme, but don't seem to be all that different at a fundamental level, than what you might see elsewhere in the world. But this is understan…

Grass is always greener somewhere else. But come on, the article is about China, not America, Europe or anywhere else. This is like how the Chinese press always diverts to American human rights problems when their is a discussion of their own. "See, America has problems too, so commenting on our problems is invalid." That's not the point, its not a competition!

Re: You'll never be Chinese

#100

Post by seanmcdirmid » Fri, Aug 10, 2012, 11:24 PM UTC

jisaacstone wrote: post #96

w1ntermute wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It seems the Conservatives are back in power Are you sure about that? With the downfall of Bo Xilai and the Chongqing model, it seems to have put the progressives, such as Wang Yang (the Guangdong party chief), in an advantageous position.

No, I am not sure as I don't follow closely anymore. I heard about the downfall of Bo but hadn't really considered the consequences. Mostly I was speaking of the climate when I left in 2008

I can attest that things have been getting more conservative; starting from around 2008 and continuing into the present. I don't think Bo Xilai's down fall will have any bearing on this; his mistake was populism rather than conservatism. Politics here are so opaque its very difficult for us to really figure out what's going on beyond what we can observe on the ground.