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You'll never be Chinese

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111–120 of 188 posts

Re: You'll never be Chinese

#111
post #94
post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do pity the guy for moving back to the UK, expecting some kind of blessing of freedom. Perhaps he has been gone too long to realize the extend to which our police state now reaches. In the past 15 years, we have reintroduced star chambers, armed the police, failed to prosecute anybody in the police force for murdering innocent citizens, introduced 'precrime' arrests to stifle dissent, and we're extraditing British…

Is there an English-speaking melting pot that doesn't have these problems?

Maybe Singapore? English is among its official languages.

Re: You'll never be Chinese

#112
post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Native-born Americans like me who have lived in east Asia are APPALLED at the wasted opportunities that United States schools have with their lavish resources to provide a truly world-class education. United States schools do not do as badly as they possibly could, but they also don't do as well as they reasonably could be expected to do. I know this is a popular refrain about American education, but it's only a ha…

From your linkd article: "So much for the bigoted notions that Americans are dumb and Europeans are smart." > "There are 3 parts to the PISA test, Reading, Math, and Science." There is more to an education than reading, math, and science. The US is particularly famous for frequently forgetting that other countries even exist. Most of the Anglo world (including, but not just US) is seen with some derision in Europe fo…

> There is more to an education than reading, math, and science. The US is particularly famous for frequently forgetting that other countries even exist. Most of the Anglo world (including, but not just US) is seen with some derision in Europe for being so proudly monoglot. A comment of "My god, that person was so dumb" is usually about their lack of worldliness, not their skill with calculus.

I won't deny the lack of language learning in the US, which is something that I find disturbing, particularly with the "flattening" of the world in recent years. However, I firmly believe that it has nothing to do with the education system. The real problem (if you can call it that) is that Anglophone countries don't need to learn any other languages. The reason why Europeans can speak foreign languages (most often English) is because they need to.

Moreover, if you live in an Anglophone country (particularly America, and I'd expect Australia is similar too, due to its linguistic isolation), there just aren't very many chances to practice a language even if you learn it. I know the public schools where I grew up required students to learn foreign languages (and they usually learned Spanish), but most of them forgot the language within a year of stopping classes, because they never got a chance to use it. This situation may very well change with the rapidly growing Hispanic population in the US.

OTOH, if you live in a non-Anglophone country, you're constantly bombarded with all kinds of media in English - on the web, in print, and on the silver screen. This effect is amplified in countries that speak languages with relatively small numbers of speakers. For example, the postage stamp-sized countries of northern Europe are more fluent in English than southern European countries such as France, Spain, and Italy, and a big reason for this is that their small size means that there is less domestic media to consume, so they turn to Angolophone content.

> There are squillions of articles out there bemoaning all aspects of the US school system's race to teach the test rather than provide an education.

Once again, I think this is largely a function of the quality of the school. Having graduated from a public high school in an affluent district after the turn of the millenium, I can say that contemporary US public schools do not solely teach to the test if the students are primarily wealthy suburbanites. We received plenty of stimulating education and in college we were thrown straight into the deep end of the pool, with lots of graduate-level material that we didn't understand for quite a while, a far cry from the reteaching of high school material that everyone says is happening. Then again, that's only my personal experience.

Re: You'll never be Chinese

#113

Bitterly biased. The China that the author describes is not the China I've seen. Housing prices may be high, but he neglects to mention that it's common for companies to provide housing to their employees. Yes, people will ask you about your money - but that's culture, and it's not impolite. There are a lot of untruths in his article, but it's too long to pick apart. A big one, though, is about appreciation for forei…

Companies still provide housing? Are you serious? That went out with the 90s in the big cities! And even then, how many people actually work for the government or an SOE qualify for this housing provided by the company? Its very easy to judge China through a western perspective; you just say "it was judged through a western perspective." Judging is always relative to a perspective and is useful to evaluate your situa…

I'm not taking offense in a patriotic stance. I'm offended because it's plain incorrect. I don't know if we're arguing the same thing, but I'm saying looking at China from a western perspective is misleading, and leads you to formulate judgments that are based on slanted information. It's much like how the average citizen believes he's knowledgeable about the economy.

It's still commonplace for companies to provide housing. I'm not sure how I can prove this to you, other than asking you to go to China, or read it in Chinese.

"Foreigner laws in China are designed to protect us? Ya, by not letting our kids go to any but the most expensive international schools? By making us re-register with our local PSB whenever we go on a business trip? By limiting how we can spend our money..which we earned in China and paid (high) Chinese taxes on? By making us pay social security taxes and then telling us we will only see that money at all if we work here for 15 years?"

Their schools and our schools aren't the same. If you sent your kid to a regular Chinese school, do you expect the same treatment as Chinese kids get? Is it okay for their teachers to hit your kids if they misbehave? Perhaps you'd like the rest of the kids to pretend like your kid was Chinese, even though their culture isn't as multicultural as ours.

I don't know what your complaint with the PSB registration is about. It takes two minutes, and other countries do very similar things. They're keeping track of foreigners in their country. USA, Canada - we all do it, just through different ways. Only difference is, there's an order of magnitude in population difference. I remember, actually, when I went to school in the USA, I had 10x more paperwork to fill out than going to China (I'm Canadian).

USA and Canada also limit the amount of money you can spend before you're horribly taxed. This isn't unique to China. I've never paid Chinese social insurance, so I honestly can't say. All I know is, I'm paying social security in Canada, and by the time I use it, it's going to be (probably) gone.

Re: You'll never be Chinese

#114
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This whole, "oh the west is just as bad" troupe needs to die. But if they do have children, they don't have to endure this: http://www.chinasmack.com/2009/stories/shanghai-black-girl-l... Can you even imagine a "mixed" kid who grew up entirely in the US being cussed out by well over half the commenters on a talent show, and for even the kids mother to be attacked relentlessly for being with a man of a different color…

Yes. Yes I can. Having been a competitive runner in my youth, I am big into track and field, but I do not own a television. Only mentioned that to admit that I do not know a lot about popular culture. But I do know Track and Field. When you read about the past of LoLo Jones and this girl in Shanghai, they seem basically identical. Complete with the hate from the respective national medias. If you are feeling brave, t…

Really? I find this hard to believe the two are at all comparable.

Can you provide a link to a page of a major media outlet in which numerous commenters claim she isn't really American due to her race? Or maybe a few tweets from famous people who have suggested that she step aside and let Americans compete?

Re: You'll never be Chinese

#115
post #94
post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do pity the guy for moving back to the UK, expecting some kind of blessing of freedom. Perhaps he has been gone too long to realize the extend to which our police state now reaches. In the past 15 years, we have reintroduced star chambers, armed the police, failed to prosecute anybody in the police force for murdering innocent citizens, introduced 'precrime' arrests to stifle dissent, and we're extraditing British…

Is there an English-speaking melting pot that doesn't have these problems?

I'm thinking of learning Spanish for this reason.

Re: You'll never be Chinese

#116
post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there an English-speaking melting pot that doesn't have these problems?

Maybe Singapore? English is among its official languages.

Singapore is basically a police state already.

It may be a better place to live than the US or UK however.

Re: You'll never be Chinese

#117
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I found this article fascinating, and I would love to read your take on it.

My point is it is possible to write a similarly slanted article about the west pointing out only the negative things (and they are legion). The author has had some very bad experiences in China this has colored his views and is the basis for the many sweeping generalizations and unjustified statements in the article such as 'the world does not want to be led by China in the 21st century' or 'The domestic Chinese lowe…

Try being a raghead like me and going through transport security in Europe, then going through it in the USA, then comparing the experience. You may be disillusioned.

Re: You'll never be Chinese

#118

As Confucius said, 三人行,必有我師焉 ("wherever three persons are walking, my teacher is surely among them"). This is a very interesting article for an American who has lived in east Asia for two three-year stays (mostly in Taiwan) and who has been learning the Chinese language since 1975. Much of what has been said about China in the first decade of the twenty-first century reminds me very much of what was said about Japan…

> Native-born Americans like me who have lived in east Asia are APPALLED at the wasted opportunities that United States schools have with their lavish resources to provide a truly world-class education. United States schools do not do as badly as they possibly could, but they also don't do as well as they reasonably could be expected to do. I know this is a popular refrain about American education, but it's only a ha…

The link you kindly shared is a lousy analysis of the overall issue,

http://www.nationalreview.com/agenda/255997/are-tino-sananda...

as several commenters here on HN have mentioned to other persons who have shared the link, and anyway doesn't address the nub of my statement, which is that the United States, by OBSERVATION OF ACTUAL PRACTICE, is underperforming in providing lessons to young people in school,

http://www.ams.org/notices/199908/rev-howe.pdf

http://www.amazon.com/The-Teaching-Gap-Improving-Education/d...

http://educationnext.org/teaching-math-to-the-talented/

especially from the point of view of how much the United States spends on schools.

http://www.oecd.org/pisa/49685503.pdf

Re: You'll never be Chinese

#119
Very interesting read of one person's (very credible) opinions about China. Yet...

The title is a tautology. I can't help but feel that anyone from country X will every be integrated into any other country, as long as they still want to be themselves. Which is what the author never really states. Had he bought into the materialistic lifestyle, asked everyone how much money they made, and insisted his kids cram for elementry school exams, and toed the party line (whatever that may be), then maybe he would've been considered Chinese (I bet he'd say you still wouldn't but he didn't even consider that possibility). But no, he wanted to be a Westerner in China, and by definition, never become Chinese.

I lived in Europe for half of my life before age 30. I was fluent and mistaken for a native of the country where I lived. Yet, I could not help but retain my American perspective; I don't think I could give that up even if I wanted to. So even if I blended into the culture and wanted be a native, I could not feel like one myself. I came "home" to the US and don't feel American anymore either--I think that will be the author's fate in Britain. I have American friends still there, native by any standard, yet still consider themselves American by choice.

So I think it comes down to giving up one's identifying culture. The ironic thing, is that Chinese (and many other foreigners) do it all the time when they immigrate to the West. To me, that is the quandary of immigration: how do they manage to embrace the host culture so much that they no longer identify with their native one. It seems so much easier to do from East (India, China) to West (US, mostly). It seems like it's much easier to go from a culture of community to one of individuality than vice-versa. Why is there a lack of symmetry?

Re: You'll never be Chinese

#120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Completely agree with your synopsis in the first sentence. The article would have been stronger had he given a more thoughtful analysis to the differences between China and say, America. As it is, he points out a lot of characteristics of China and the Chinese that may be more extreme, but don't seem to be all that different at a fundamental level, than what you might see elsewhere in the world. But this is understan…

Grass is always greener somewhere else. But come on, the article is about China, not America, Europe or anywhere else. This is like how the Chinese press always diverts to American human rights problems when their is a discussion of their own. "See, America has problems too, so commenting on our problems is invalid." That's not the point, its not a competition!

I think you're reading more into my comment than there is.
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