You'll never be Chinese • Hacker News Board

Re: You'll never be Chinese

#41

Post by swampthing » Fri, Aug 10, 2012, 6:20 PM UTC

msabalau wrote: post #32

Jd wrote: post #3

"A China that leads the world will not offer the chance to be Chinese, because it is impossible to become Chinese. " Of course. The British led the world and did not offer (at the time) anyone the chance to be British either. In fact, they actively discouraged interbreeding. It is a dogma of the modern Occident that it is stronger to be multi-ethnic, and that national identity should be open to anyone. History shows…

Of course, that we speak of "the British" is a testament to a certain level of success of melding English/Scottish/Welsh identities, much of which happened in the context of imperial endeavor. And certainly many other groups (Sepoys, say) found their interests aligned at times with the imperial project, in a way that outweighed their ethnic background. Being open to a flexible interpretation of identity/citzenship (B…

There's far more than 3 identities wrapped up in "the Chinese".

Re: You'll never be Chinese

#42

Post by barkingcat » Fri, Aug 10, 2012, 6:20 PM UTC

Just remember, this too shall pass.

You can't be Chinese right now, but that doesn't mean you'll never be Chinese.

Governments do fall and rise at the drop of a hat in China. People know that right?

Re: You'll never be Chinese

#43

Post by travisp » Fri, Aug 10, 2012, 6:20 PM UTC

wensheng wrote: post #31

strebler wrote: post #16

This is definitely one of the better (and more accurate) articles on the subject. I have been doing business in China and definitely see his view - it's easy to see why most of China's elite send their children abroad. I wouldn't live there for an extended period. I'd say their education system (and society) tends to hammer the creativity out of people. I see strong evidence that who think differently are ridiculed.…

When I was in China, i often ride in friends' cars. The first thing I do when I get in cars is buckling up, and I'm often ridiculed for fearing of death (i really am). Twice I sit on the passenger side and tried to put the seatbelt plate into buckle but I couldn't, because there's already a key holder in there. I learned since no passenger wear seat-belt, the driver just put the key holder there to silence the warnin…

This isn't just a Chinese thing. I've experienced it personally in Russia, and I've heard of it in other countries too.

Re: You'll never be Chinese

#44

Post by wtrk » Fri, Aug 10, 2012, 6:30 PM UTC

The (unframed) article: http://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/politics/mark-kitto-youll-...

Re: You'll never be Chinese

#45

Post by fring0 » Fri, Aug 10, 2012, 6:43 PM UTC

voodoomagicman wrote: post #20

fring0 wrote: post #7

It's funny to see more of these articles about China where westerners get their panties in a bunch when they find themselves in a similar situation most other people have been in with respect to the west. I should write a similar article about my American/European dream. I hope the Chinese are able to take criticism better than the west. Westerners can't get over their superiority complex.

I found this article fascinating, and I would love to read your take on it.

My point is it is possible to write a similarly slanted article about the west pointing out only the negative things (and they are legion). The author has had some very bad experiences in China this has colored his views and is the basis for the many sweeping generalizations and unjustified statements in the article such as 'the world does not want to be led by China in the 21st century' or 'The domestic Chinese lower education system does not educate'. Also the feelings he describes of wanting to be part of a community but never quite fitting is not unfamiliar to many who live in the west. That said, the US is still miles ahead of China (and most of Europe) in guaranteeing equal rights and protection regardless of race or origin.

Re: You'll never be Chinese

#46

Post by swampthing » Fri, Aug 10, 2012, 6:46 PM UTC

lionhearted wrote: post #17

Hmm. A strange article. A mix of really good points soaked in bitterness. I spend the bulk of my time in Beijing, Taipei, and Ulaanbaatar (Mongolia). My take is slightly different. Well, a lot is true. The property thing, definitely. The state industry takeovers is scary; you have to get a sense for what industries they don't mind foreigners in, and which they do. Media? Yeah, you don't want to own a media company in…

Completely agree with your synopsis in the first sentence. The article would have been stronger had he given a more thoughtful analysis to the differences between China and say, America. As it is, he points out a lot of characteristics of China and the Chinese that may be more extreme, but don't seem to be all that different at a fundamental level, than what you might see elsewhere in the world. But this is understandable, given that it sounds like he's been immersed in China for the last 16 years - perhaps he's lost some perspective.

Re: You'll never be Chinese

#47

Post by Apocryphon » Fri, Aug 10, 2012, 6:52 PM UTC

barkingcat wrote: post #42

Just remember, this too shall pass. You can't be Chinese right now, but that doesn't mean you'll never be Chinese. Governments do fall and rise at the drop of a hat in China. People know that right?

True, but as opposed to, say, France, the dropping of hats in China may take centuries, if not millennia.

Re: You'll never be Chinese

#48

Post by chaostheory » Fri, Aug 10, 2012, 6:54 PM UTC

guscost wrote: post #15

chaostheory wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A China that leads the world will not offer the chance to be Chinese, because it is impossible to become Chinese. I feel that this only applies for the elite, especially when there's a lot of political infighting; marrying an outsider will weaken the whole family which is really bad in a low trust society but that's another topic. This is not true for all social levels of China. China has practiced for what my inte…

In all fairness, many Europeans (and Americans, of course) are "somewhat racist" too.

I feel there's a big difference when you compare the US to either Europe or Asia as a whole: we are very open about it and our failings with it. It's in our consciousness to work hard to fight against it.

I think Europe is getting there with this frame of mind, but I don't feel that Asia even pretends to try.

Re: You'll never be Chinese

#49

Post by potatolicious » Fri, Aug 10, 2012, 7:01 PM UTC

enraged_camel wrote: post #11

fring0 wrote: post #7

It's funny to see more of these articles about China where westerners get their panties in a bunch when they find themselves in a similar situation most other people have been in with respect to the west. I should write a similar article about my American/European dream. I hope the Chinese are able to take criticism better than the west. Westerners can't get over their superiority complex.

>>I hope the Chinese are able to take criticism better than the west. Westerners can't get over their superiority complex. Actually, most Chinese people I've met, especially those who were born and raised in mainland China, have a massive superiority complex. In every type of discussion comparing the West to China, they keep bringing it up the fact that China has thousands of years of history, and has invented things…

I've noticed the same thing - but I've interpreted as an inferiority complex. As a Chinese, I feel like the Chinese feel an incredible need to prove themselves.

After all, the 19th and 20th centuries have been one crushing defeat after another. The yearning and obsession with past achievements (like, 500+ years past) is symptomatic of a general lack of confidence in the present state of Chinese society.

You meet a lot of Chinese with a chip on their shoulders and a remarkable need to assert that China will be strong once more, along with vague threats about how naysayer countries will get their comeuppance when the time comes. This all sounds quite similar to "The South shall rise again!" - an attitude borne out of defeatism, not true optimism.

Re: You'll never be Chinese

#50

Post by 286c8cb04bda » Fri, Aug 10, 2012, 7:06 PM UTC

chaostheory wrote: post #9

Jd wrote: post #3

"A China that leads the world will not offer the chance to be Chinese, because it is impossible to become Chinese. " Of course. The British led the world and did not offer (at the time) anyone the chance to be British either. In fact, they actively discouraged interbreeding. It is a dogma of the modern Occident that it is stronger to be multi-ethnic, and that national identity should be open to anyone. History shows…

> A China that leads the world will not offer the chance to be Chinese, because it is impossible to become Chinese. I feel that this only applies for the elite, especially when there's a lot of political infighting; marrying an outsider will weaken the whole family which is really bad in a low trust society but that's another topic. This is not true for all social levels of China. China has practiced for what my inte…

> This is not true for all social levels of China.

I somewhat disagree.

That type of "reverse genocide" only works in East Asia. One of the reasons for the ongoing conflict in Xinjiang is that the local Uyghur, Kyrgyz, et al. don't look Chinese and don't pay any lip service to the "superiority" of Han culture.

> If your children do no look "Chinese", they will not be considered as chinese.

And this is the reason why.

Even though their mother is 100% Han, my own children easily pass as average WASPs. No matter how long they live in China, no matter how fluent they are in Mandarin, they will never be accepted as Chinese by anyone other than her relatives.