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Half the men in Seattle are never-married singles, census data shows

seattletimes.com

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Re: Half the men in Seattle are never-married singles, census data shows

#101

Post by ghaff »

trollbridge wrote: post #89
ghaff wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People, especially couples, moving out of cities as they get older has been a thing for decades. You’d think young urbanites would welcome this.

It means heavy car dependence unless you expect people to change careers when they have a family. Hence the modern American cityscape, with most the population spread out amongst suburbs.

A lot of the jobs are in the suburbs (finance being something of an exception). A lot of the tech industry is in car-reliant suburbs. I live in Massachusetts and, until west coast firms established outposts in Boston/Cambridge and pharma basically took over Kendall Square, there was basically no tech industry in Boston for a couple decades.

And, yes, outside of Manhattan and young people essentially living like they did in college for a few years, car dependency is just what most people do.

Re: Half the men in Seattle are never-married singles, census data shows

#102

Post by fifilura »

nradov wrote: post #100
fifilura wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a comparison, full time daycare in Sweden is $100/month for everyone. I think this is one important reason that marriage is not as common, since the society is aligned towards that is should be possible to manage on your own if you absolutely need to. I can't find a proper number but anecdotally I think maybe 50% of first time parents are married in Sweden. And yes obviously this is paid by higher taxes, but seen…

The birth rate in Sweden is low and falling. Whatever they're doing to keep demography sane doesn't seem to be working. Like most developed Western countries, their current approach relies more on high levels of immigration. Essentially they have outsourced the hassle and expense of having children. https://population-europe.eu/research/policy-insights/why-ar...

It is true. But that also means that the cost will not be there.

I'd claim it did work for some time (from the 1970s to the 2000s) because it allowed the transition to a society where women did not have to choose between children and a career.

I am not sure what is the reason for lower birth rate now. Maybe that young people have gotten used to that you always have a choice.

Re: Half the men in Seattle are never-married singles, census data shows

#103

Post by graemep »

jandrewrogers wrote: post #25

Anecdotally, among the people I know in Seattle, many people who have happily been in the same relationship for decades are not married. People are not avoiding long-term relationships, they are avoiding the baggage and fairly rigid assumptions that comes with state intervention in their relationships. There is zero social pressure to be “officially” married so people have no reason to do it for the sake of social co…

What is US law on this and what are the "rigid assumptions" people find troublesome.

In the UK the main effect of marriage is that it protects the lower earning partner if the relationship breaks down - most often (even now!) this is a woman who gives up work/takes a break from work to bring up kids. I come across a good many single mothers (mostly online because of an FB group I admin) who would have been MUCH better off financially if they had been married, and a lot who are a lot better off because they were married.

Historically the main reason for legal marriage was to protect women from being left with kids by feckless men who evaded responsibility. Its a bit less pressing now we have paternity tests (and contraceptives) but its still a problem, and whoever gives up career for childcare still loses out without marriage.

Re: Half the men in Seattle are never-married singles, census data shows

#104

Post by realitysetin »

linotype wrote: post #33
rileymat2 wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, the discounting of other aspects is my mental block. I understand that everyone has different desires, but it is hard for me to, personally, empathize with. Hence the mind boggling.

It was for me as well, but the more I’ve worked in tech, the more men I’ve met that simply aren’t capable of a relationship.

[flagged]

Re: Half the men in Seattle are never-married singles, census data shows

#105

Post by jeffbee »

nullc wrote: post #99
jeffbee wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Common law marriage" is ... common ... at least under ... common law. Canada, like America, is influenced by the uniquely bad English common law heritage. Even Quebec with its pretend Frankenlaw system that blends civil and common law can't escape the influence.

I don't know about other countries but it mostly does not exist in the US. Only 9 states allow one to be created, one of which requires it to be certified by a court. And in those states that do you must intentionally, openly, and conspicuously hold yourself out as married... so the urban legends about accidentally ending up married are just that-- urban legends-- at least in the US.

Well, the beauty of the common law tradition is you, as a hypothetical co-habitator, have no idea whether you are "accidentally married" in any particular regard unless or until the matter comes before a judge for whatever reason. Your aggrieved former not-quite-spouse can make whatever claim to equitable judgement that they can imagine in, say, Colorado. Contrast this with, say, Poland or France, where under their civil traditions there is no chance whatsoever that your unmarried person who lived with you will be able to claim your estate when you have died.

Re: Half the men in Seattle are never-married singles, census data shows

#106

Post by graemep »

jb1991 wrote: post #57
willidiots wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One thing to be mindful of is that this limits your ability to help your partner as you age. State intervention can play both ways.

That’s unfortunate. And it’s a uniquely American mindset. Long-term relationships in Europe for example do not require marriage in the same way that Americans do. People get married in the states because of the law, people get married in other countries because they just want to get married for emotional or spiritual reasons.

As I said in another comment this leads to many people being disadvantaged.

I do not know where you live, and these laws vary between countries, but in the UK marriage gives you a lot of important legal rights. Not marring disadvantages a lower earning partner (most often a woman who has taken time off a career to look after kids) if the relationship breaks down, it does not give you the same legal rights if one dies with regard to inheritance (no real rights if there is no will, far less right to contest a will, and the loss of a significant inheritance tax exemption even if there is), or being automatically next of kin (I think this has improved in practice), no automatic joint parental responsibility for children, etc.

Re: Half the men in Seattle are never-married singles, census data shows

#107

Post by swyx »

delichon wrote: post #49

My brother was a never-married single in Seattle, and it was the cause of his death at the start of the pandemic. He was terminally lonely and without purpose and suicided. But he was a tremendously loyal person. If he was able to make a connection and form a family, he would have been full of purpose. Instead he lived quietly in a small house in a quiet neighborhood, and after he died none of his neighbors could eve…

very sorry for your loss. i've been similar in Seattle and it was tremendously alienating. I left as soon as I could. Obviously not a seattle-only thing but I think Seattle is so full of picture perfect couples (working 9-5, big tech/big tech adjacent, dog, 1.5 kids) and gloomy weather that it is the perfect combo of depression fuel for anyone that doesn't fit that mould. the only social activity is beer. so you aren't just lonely but you also get drunk and fat (and probably shave your head bald and grow a beard but thats more portland spilling over).

Re: Half the men in Seattle are never-married singles, census data shows

#108

Post by mdaniel »

pfdietz wrote: post #52
MaxPock wrote: post #47

TFR in the US is just as bad as in China

TFR in the US is 1.66. In China, it is 1.18.

I didn't know what that stood for, in case it helps anyone else: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_total_fer...

Re: Half the men in Seattle are never-married singles, census data shows

#109

Post by WarOnPrivacy »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #62
willidiots wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One thing to be mindful of is that this limits your ability to help your partner as you age. State intervention can play both ways.

It’s actually the opposite. A lot of benefits programs are punitive to marriage wrt household income. I know many older couples who stay unmarried because one of them would lose their healthcare or cash transfer benefit, for example. For making healthcare decisions, durable power attorney and a medical proxy should be sufficient for unmarried couples. Not an attorney, talk to one if this is a need you have to validat…

> For making healthcare decisions, durable power attorney and a medical proxy should be sufficient for unmarried couples.

Should be isn't is. PoA aren't trivially recognized in the way a marriage is. If you have to interact with more than a couple of services you ought to expect friction.

A local medical provider might not be familiar with a PoA but that can be worked out. However, bureaucracies like insurance providers can be staffed with people whose trainings never mentioned PoA but did extensively cover HIPAA compliance (and penalties).

In caring for my spouse, there were times that I needed all of the above: spousehood + PoA + verbal auth from spouse.

source: legal assistant, probate

source: 25yr as caregiver for disabled spouse (+PoA)

Re: Half the men in Seattle are never-married singles, census data shows

#110

Post by graemep »

garciasn wrote: post #43
jandrewrogers wrote: post #25

Anecdotally, among the people I know in Seattle, many people who have happily been in the same relationship for decades are not married. People are not avoiding long-term relationships, they are avoiding the baggage and fairly rigid assumptions that comes with state intervention in their relationships. There is zero social pressure to be “officially” married so people have no reason to do it for the sake of social co…

As someone who was married and is now divorced, I can absolutely see the draw. I don’t think of it as “state intervention in relationships,” as I’m not a libertarian, but aside from tax breaks, which mean absolutely nothing when I have to pay for my ex-wife to live carefree for the rest of her life simply because we were married and she was lazy, doesn’t offset the 19 years of tax offsets she squandered.

I can understand that. My ex wife is currently after money from me after years of refusing to work (even when we really needed the money) - and I did more than half the work in looking after our kids too. Just to explain, divorce, child arrangements, and divorce finance are separate cases here.

We do not have tax breaks for being married here in the UK. There is one tiny advantage if one person does not have a taxable income, but is pretty small.

On the other hand I also (as I said in other comments) know women (and it is still almost entirely women) who have not got a fair deal financial because they were not married, but gave up work to look after the kids/be a home maker. That is just as unfair.

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