Air pollution fell substantially as Paris restricted car traffic • Hacker News Board

Re: Air pollution fell substantially as Paris restricted car traffic

#111

Post by domoritz » Sat, Apr 12, 2025, 6:31 PM UTC

bornfreddy wrote: post #101

ahaucnx wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems that there has been fundamental mistakes and overstatements in the amount of particles from brakes in much of the secondary research in the last decades. Details: https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acs.estlett.4c00792

One would also expect that EVs wouldn't emit that many particles from brakes since the brakes typically wear much more slowly than with ICE cars.

But they are heavier. Not saying it offsets the effect but it's just not straight forward to assume either way.

Re: Air pollution fell substantially as Paris restricted car traffic

#112

Post by timewizard » Sat, Apr 12, 2025, 6:31 PM UTC

adonovan wrote: post #98

MPSFounder wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just not true. I favor EVs, but it is incredibly misleading to say 98% comes from other sources. In many places, natural gas and coal are still used to generate the electricity needed. That must be accounted for in your life cycle analysis. In fact, once you remove the Musk propaganda, Tesla's EVs are by no way greener (draw a boundary around his other company SpaceX, and the rocket fuel it uses, and you immediately…

True, but even in Wyoming, where you EV is really a coal-powered vehicle, the coal is not burned in the city.

Are you sure about that?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_power_stations_in_Wyom...

Re: Air pollution fell substantially as Paris restricted car traffic

#113

Post by ismailmaj » Sat, Apr 12, 2025, 6:32 PM UTC

bill38 wrote: post #11

There's still a lot of cars driving in Paris. And motor scooters.

It's mostly in the west of Paris i.e. 8th, 15th and 16th districts, the other districts not so much if at all.

Re: Air pollution fell substantially as Paris restricted car traffic

#114

Post by Saline9515 » Sat, Apr 12, 2025, 6:33 PM UTC

TulliusCicero wrote: post #99

Saline9515 wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Paris didn't improve its public transportation system, as it made it impossible to own a car. It ends up as pure sadism for the inhabitants who are not childless, affluent 20/30 years old, and who have no alternative than having to take the piss-smelling cattle trains with no access the disabled people, or strollers.

> A city improved the air quality "Pure sadism!!!" Yeah I'm sure everyone is real miserable, which is why they just voted in a referendum for more car-free streets. Amazing how out of touch with reality the car-dominance types are.

You clearly have a non-existent knowledge of French political life. This referendum had a participation rate of 4%, and only 62% of the voters voted yes. So around 2% of the total voters.

By the way, the French metro's air is highly polluted, due to tire degradation and brake dust, making it unfit for children or pregnant women.

So yeah, it's manageable for young people. But when a baby arrives, it's hell. Same if you are old. Or disabled.

Re: Air pollution fell substantially as Paris restricted car traffic

#115

Post by timewizard » Sat, Apr 12, 2025, 6:33 PM UTC

freen wrote: post #107

timewizard wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are cities not designed around cars. We just call them "rural." You could not have had your urban city without cars. There is absolutely nothing "tragic" about this. Meanwhile you live in a world where petty wars are fought over resources to enhance the wealth of an extreme minority of the population. That's an actual tragedy.

It seems we have very different definitions of “city”. I am very curious to hear yours.

It seems you want to ignore half the problem.

Re: Air pollution fell substantially as Paris restricted car traffic

#116

Post by masklinn » Sat, Apr 12, 2025, 6:34 PM UTC

timewizard wrote: post #105

grg0 wrote: post #31

Cars in cities, let alone designing cities around cars, is one of the greatest tragedies of modern life.

There are cities not designed around cars. We just call them "rural." You could not have had your urban city without cars. There is absolutely nothing "tragic" about this. Meanwhile you live in a world where petty wars are fought over resources to enhance the wealth of an extreme minority of the population. That's an actual tragedy.

> There are cities not designed around cars. We just call them "rural." You could not have had your urban city without cars.

That is literally the opposite of reality.

Re: Air pollution fell substantially as Paris restricted car traffic

#117

Post by EasyMark » Sat, Apr 12, 2025, 6:35 PM UTC

epolanski wrote: post #77

grg0 wrote: post #31

Cars in cities, let alone designing cities around cars, is one of the greatest tragedies of modern life.

And it's one of the biggest promoters of inequality. I am an European who studied at OSU in Columbus for a semester and it was absurd to me how on one side there was lots of work downtown, yet you could live 20 miles of it and it would take you two hours by public transport to get there, an odyssey. People without a car, insurance, poorer parts of the society were cut off from the job market for not having a way to c…

Suburbs are fine. We are in 2025, not 1925, there is no reason why work from home isn't an option for information workers and others who don't need to be physically on premises. You are completely ignoring how much that cuts down on traffic and would lower the cost of real estate, so more people who aren't millionaires could live downtown. We also have electric cars that have basically zero emissions, there is a technical solution for this; not everyone wants to ride a bus or train.

Re: Air pollution fell substantially as Paris restricted car traffic

#118

Post by AnthonyMouse » Sat, Apr 12, 2025, 6:36 PM UTC

TulliusCicero wrote: post #99

Saline9515 wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Paris didn't improve its public transportation system, as it made it impossible to own a car. It ends up as pure sadism for the inhabitants who are not childless, affluent 20/30 years old, and who have no alternative than having to take the piss-smelling cattle trains with no access the disabled people, or strollers.

> A city improved the air quality "Pure sadism!!!" Yeah I'm sure everyone is real miserable, which is why they just voted in a referendum for more car-free streets. Amazing how out of touch with reality the car-dominance types are.

The improvement in air quality is overwhelmingly a result of banning diesel cars. It is, of course, possible to ban diesel cars rather than all cars.

The people who live in the city don't want cars because it's the people who can't afford to live in the city who need them to get there.

Re: Air pollution fell substantially as Paris restricted car traffic

#119

Post by ajsnigrutin » Sat, Apr 12, 2025, 6:37 PM UTC

10-1-100 wrote: post #18

mjevans wrote: post #7

"Ban all the cars" does have noticeable effects. I wonder if something less all / none might have nearly the same effects with far less drawbacks otherwise. E.G. What if only emissions testing certified low emission vehicles were allowed? What if only electric? How about requiring quiet utility trucks for garbage / freight / etc? For cities that large / dense, adding in Caves of Steel like people-mover belts might be…

With modern emissions standards, more than 50% of the harmful pollution comes from tires/brakes/road surface wear/resuspended dust: https://www.oecd.org/en/publications/non-exhaust-particulate... Moving away from privately owned cars entirely seems to be the only way to eliminate the health impact of cars on people in a city.

> With modern emissions standards, more than 50% of the harmful pollution comes from tires/brakes/road surface wear/resuspended dust:

Sure, but what about compared to eg. 15 year old diesels with removed DPF filters? Those were the cars that were removed from paris (with the "eco stickers" and other regulation), and that brought the pollution down.

New cars exhaust very little particulate matter, so percantages don't say a lot.

I mean.. almost 100% of the polution of bicyles comes from tires/brakes/road surface/resuspended dust, but the total amount is very low.

Re: Air pollution fell substantially as Paris restricted car traffic

#120

Post by newZWhoDis » Sat, Apr 12, 2025, 6:37 PM UTC

epolanski wrote: post #77

grg0 wrote: post #31

Cars in cities, let alone designing cities around cars, is one of the greatest tragedies of modern life.

And it's one of the biggest promoters of inequality. I am an European who studied at OSU in Columbus for a semester and it was absurd to me how on one side there was lots of work downtown, yet you could live 20 miles of it and it would take you two hours by public transport to get there, an odyssey. People without a car, insurance, poorer parts of the society were cut off from the job market for not having a way to c…

Posts like these reverse cause and effect.