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Show HN: Fermi – A Wordle-style game for order-of-magnitude thinking

fermi-game.andrewnoble.me

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Re: Show HN: Fermi – A Wordle-style game for order-of-magnitude thinking

#11

Post by andrewrn »

jy14898 wrote: post #4
andrewrn wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Appreciate all that. You're right about all of these, they're mostly there because I just wanted to get out the door and get feedback. The reorderability/pickability is a remnant from when there were multiple operations (+-*/), but I figured it still allows the user to build the reasoning. Mathematically it doesn't matter as you said, but there is an intuitive order for the chain of reasoning. You think the sliders o…

> You think the sliders ought to be a wider range? Perhaps, or just no sliders (or something else). To illustrate, setting all the sliders to the min gets the correct order of magnitude, setting all the sliders to the middle gets the correct answer, and max is only off by 1 order. Maybe the slider just picking the order of magnitude would make it more fun (1e-9 to 1e9 for example, 20 ish steps), not sure. Perhaps the…

These thoughts are all really valuable. I ought to probably pick between general estimation and pure order-of-magnitude stuff. Thanks!

Re: Show HN: Fermi – A Wordle-style game for order-of-magnitude thinking

#12

Post by andrewrn »

beeftime wrote: post #8

Why do I have to pick the factors first? Do I have to use all of them? Why shouldn't I use all of them? If I do, why aren't they already picked? Why are all of these sliders? Why don't they start at zero? Why do all of them at the default setting result in me winning? Speaking of, am I winning? Failure and success give me the same feedback. I can play this game over and over until I win? That's not really in the Word…

A better palette of possible factors was something I thought about. It will require rewriting nearly the whole app, but it's likely the direction I'll go when I make v2.

To take it a step further I thought I could use even smaller building blocks via dimensional "toolboxes" like quantity, distance, volume, and conversions and each question files its factors into each tool box (with some dummies like you said). Do you think that'd be more interesting? It's more complex though so mass appeal might go down.

Re: Show HN: Fermi – A Wordle-style game for order-of-magnitude thinking

#13

Post by andrewrn »

mNovak wrote: post #6

It looks very nice visually, but I think the input sliders are way too narrow. Point in fact, in this example they have roughly a 2:1 range, which means virtually any combination of inputs 'wins' the game (is within 1 order of magnitude). That's not particularly fun, is it. Personally, I approach Fermi estimates as order of magnitude guesses for each factor (e.g. if guessing how many ping pong balls fit in a 747, you…

This is revealing an important design distinction. The game needs to adapt to different scales. There are huge scale estimations (day 3's question is the volume of air humanity inhales each day, for ex), and smaller ones that are still useful "how many cups of coffee can a barista make in a hour". Both seem like they could still be fun, with the mechanics being more dynamic to the question's scale. Do this seem right?

I ought to make this cleaner in the app. Thanks so much!

Re: Show HN: Fermi – A Wordle-style game for order-of-magnitude thinking

#14

Post by rappatic »

andrewrn wrote: post #12
beeftime wrote: post #8

Why do I have to pick the factors first? Do I have to use all of them? Why shouldn't I use all of them? If I do, why aren't they already picked? Why are all of these sliders? Why don't they start at zero? Why do all of them at the default setting result in me winning? Speaking of, am I winning? Failure and success give me the same feedback. I can play this game over and over until I win? That's not really in the Word…

A better palette of possible factors was something I thought about. It will require rewriting nearly the whole app, but it's likely the direction I'll go when I make v2. To take it a step further I thought I could use even smaller building blocks via dimensional "toolboxes" like quantity, distance, volume, and conversions and each question files its factors into each tool box (with some dummies like you said). Do you…

> mass appeal might go down

I don't think Fermi questions have mass appeal anyway. I don't think most people know what "order of magnitude" means, let alone understand dimensional analysis (ie., the conceptual idea of what it means for units to cancel).

I don't think making the game a little more complex would really affect its appeal, because it's already targeted at people with a certain level of scientific understanding.

Re: Show HN: Fermi – A Wordle-style game for order-of-magnitude thinking

#15

Post by andrewrn »

rappatic wrote: post #14
andrewrn wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A better palette of possible factors was something I thought about. It will require rewriting nearly the whole app, but it's likely the direction I'll go when I make v2. To take it a step further I thought I could use even smaller building blocks via dimensional "toolboxes" like quantity, distance, volume, and conversions and each question files its factors into each tool box (with some dummies like you said). Do you…

> mass appeal might go down I don't think Fermi questions have mass appeal anyway. I don't think most people know what "order of magnitude" means, let alone understand dimensional analysis (ie., the conceptual idea of what it means for units to cancel). I don't think making the game a little more complex would really affect its appeal, because it's already targeted at people with a certain level of scientific underst…

Good call. It easy to forget that the world isn't as nerdy as me lol. This would definitely let me focus the game a lot better anyway.

Re: Show HN: Fermi – A Wordle-style game for order-of-magnitude thinking

#16

Post by tgv »

andrewrn wrote: post #15
rappatic wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> mass appeal might go down I don't think Fermi questions have mass appeal anyway. I don't think most people know what "order of magnitude" means, let alone understand dimensional analysis (ie., the conceptual idea of what it means for units to cancel). I don't think making the game a little more complex would really affect its appeal, because it's already targeted at people with a certain level of scientific underst…

Good call. It easy to forget that the world isn't as nerdy as me lol. This would definitely let me focus the game a lot better anyway.

OTOH, not so long ago, a colleague and I tried to guess the number of piano tuners in large cities, e.g. New York. I find your idea nice, but the execution could be more flexible, more puzzle-like. E.g., you could have units (like #passengers, #planes, #flights, time), and the user can create factors out of those.

But I'm afraid that it'll lose its appeal after a while. These problems seem same-y to me, more so than Wordle.

Re: Show HN: Fermi – A Wordle-style game for order-of-magnitude thinking

#18

Post by bangaladore »

My honest opinion is I have no clue what's going on. To some extent it is because traditionally you wouldn't consider this a game like Worlde, other than the fact you presumably release a new setup for each day.

To some extent, the idea could be improved by always including all factors by default and only allowing sliders to be changed. Or allow me to use less factors.

The biggest issue is I have no clue what happened when I clicked guess. Going back I see the reference estimate, but frankly its unclear what that even means (again average person is uninformed). I want something to clearly tell me how close I got, and maybe what percentile I'm in for users who have played today. It's simply not addicting in the way that the other recent Worlde like games are meant to be.

Other nitpicks:

The example popup does not help me understand anything

Its not apparent why the sliders have an initial value nor what the significance is

Re: Show HN: Fermi – A Wordle-style game for order-of-magnitude thinking

#19

Post by hallh »

The idea has potential, but needs polishing. When I read the tutorial, I thought that I had to guess the target number using completely unrelated values. Was a bit disappointed to see the "options" were obvious and not really optional, and the scales too limited. Seemed too easy. It would be more entertaining to guess the number of people currently in flight based on x number of full football stadiums, the avg number of eggs laid by y hens per month, etc.

A visual queue of reaching within the success range would do a lot too. Was a bit confused whether I was right or not after submitting the answer.

Re: Show HN: Fermi – A Wordle-style game for order-of-magnitude thinking

#20

Post by crmi »

I like the concept.

However the UI is a little confusing (on mobile anyway).

I might suggest you don't present the pre-set range values, as it makes it a lot easier.

Have you considered - perhaps in a way to gamify it a bit more - giving a first hint, and hiding the next 3 unless the player asks for them? It would add an element of 'getting it in 1 go' etc. I'd imagine one or two-shot winners are also more likely to share their results. More potential for your app to go viral.

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