Earlier quoted context omitted.
Is it much more worrying than having Visa being able to do that? Especially when you see how the US is going downhill, I think it'd rather take the risk of having to deal with hypothetical local fascist state.
There’s pretty much no practical difference between Visa knowing all this stuff and the government knowing it. All Visa’s data is at most one subpoena away and that’s the optimistic scenario.
Brazil's government-run payments system has become dominant
471–480 of 789 posts
Re: Brazil's government-run payments system has become dominant
#472Earlier quoted context omitted.
There's a difference between what you call DPI (which I called payment system) and central bank money. A CBDC is both, Pix and UPI are only DPI sans central bank money (so neither is a CBDC). My point is that you can get all of the benefits of having DPI without needing to incur any of the headaches that come with central bank money (financial stability risks, holding limits, private sector opposition,...). I'm all f…
I agree with your skepticism about CBDC, but it takes little to no effort to implement your own CBDC, and in the small chance that they did somehow take off, then you have a platform you can export to other countries. > I'm just questioning the bundling with central bank money In most countries excluding the US, EU, UK, and Canada, the Central Bank also sets financial regulations and provides the infra backbone for f…
Again, you can get all of that without needing a CBDC, just have the central bank build and run a regular payment system. It gets substantially more complex once you make it a CBDC, making the chance of success even smaller. For what gain? You actually introduce some tangible risks for the financial system, the fact that it's regulated doesn't eliminate that. See eg [0]: "Threats to financial intermediation in steady state arise mainly in situations where the central bank balance sheet expands, and triggers adjustment mechanisms that lead to more costly or less stable funding of the banking system, while in crisis times run risk may increase." The typical way to address those risks are holding limits, which add operational complexity (you need an overflow logic, you need a draft logic if you want to enable payments greater than the holding limit), and put some limits on programmability [1].
[0] https://www.imf.org/en/Publications/WP/Issues/2024/10/11/Cen...
Re: Brazil's government-run payments system has become dominant
#473Earlier quoted context omitted.
>>I've been living in Brazil for the last 20 years. Lucky you. I've been living here since i was born. :( Pix is surreal. It was launched in the Bolsonaro (mal)administration, designed by the proverbially incompetent public work force, and is as Orwellian as can be. Its code is nowhere to be found. The funniest thing is that is has been adopted feverishly by the rabid right wing crazies, the same lot who want to dest…
Correcting the blatant misinformation about the topic: - PIX project started in 2016, public launch in 2020 - It was not "launched" by any President; the Brazilian Central Bank is an independent authority, with it own mandate, not a branch of the executive power - PIX was co-developed with institutions of the financial sector - It's a protocol that participants must implement, not an app. The specification is even on…
Re: Brazil's government-run payments system has become dominant
#474Earlier quoted context omitted.
It's a question of national security not to let Meta eat that cake, and Brasil made the right choice. Tangentially related, I've heard talk of EU alternative to VISA and Mastercard, which I also believe is the right direction.
WhatsApp Pay is available today in Brazil. The official reason for blocking the launch was missing paperwork, but word on the street at the time was that it was to favor Pix. This is all mentioned in the Retuers article. The reasons for favoring Pix are left for one to speculate. You say national security, the other says financial surveillance and control over the population. Time will tell.
Re: Brazil's government-run payments system has become dominant
#475Sweden has had a similar system for several years before PIX in Brazil. It is also integrated with the digital ID system (BankID). The main difference is that the Swedish system is ran through a private organization managed by all the major banks (and the central bank) in conjunction. So the central bank doesn't have direct access to the transaction data technically. While the Brazilian system is only interacted dire…
I work in Swiss banking. We also have such a system for payments. Its very popular and used by most people. I keep saying they should use it as SSO, if you can authenticate payments you damn well can authenticate login requests. It makes no sense to go to an online shop, log-in with your shop account or google, and then when you pay, authenticate the payment with TWINT. And banks could even use it to login to their e…
Re: Brazil's government-run payments system has become dominant
#476Brazil was in constant economic chaos in the 80s and 90s, so the banking system invested a lot in automation and communications. I actually think it took too long for Pix to be invented. The piping was all there. Somebody just had to have the idea. Even in the 80s you could easily transfer from any bank to any other bank.
Re: Brazil's government-run payments system has become dominant
#477I've been living in Brazil for the last 20 years. Pix revolutionised the way we transact in Brazil. I've used Pix to pay for things that cost only cents, and I have a friend who bought her house using Pix. The system just works for any transfer amount. And it's so easy to use. Its speed is truly baffling, and so is its reliability. Never have I failed to make a Pix payment because of downtime. I never cease to be ama…
and the transaction size limits is also too low, for me (I think you can send multiple in quick succession though)
to avoid random fintech platform and bank scrutiny for normal transactions and the higher scrutiny given to international transfers, I've used crypto for over a decade. For investment, to pay or be paid by vendors in other countries. Places where paypal/wise/revolute/n26 will flag, hold, or western union was the only option. This hasn't changed in that decade, only more onramps and offramps for crypto has changed for more proliferation.
once our crypto is within our respective domestic jurisdictions, cashing out typically has an extremely fast, non-scrutinized option, similar in speed to Pix
another comment mentioned that the Bank of International Settlements is working on instant cross border transactions, I suspect the scrutiny and transaction size limits will remain inferior to the unlimited size that crypto provides, and lack of scrutiny that a transaction converted to a domestic transaction will provide.
Been using stablecoins for a decade and the transaction costs have dropped as blockspace has become more abundant, and the stablecoin issuers create and redeem for free.
there is also the benefit of not needing the domestic currency or banking rails, since the crypto ecosystem has many investment options for different risk profiles, and many vendors to pay for goods and services.
It is very common that people do not find this competitive because they aren't aware they have a problem, or don't have a problem. But many people do encounter a friction once they branch out into another industry to try to change their circumstances, or earn larger amounts. That attracts enough people to crypto.
Re: Brazil's government-run payments system has become dominant
#478> Brazil’s fusty banking That's precious coming from an US publication, a country where checks are still used.
Re: Brazil's government-run payments system has become dominant
#479I've been living in Brazil for the last 20 years. Pix revolutionised the way we transact in Brazil. I've used Pix to pay for things that cost only cents, and I have a friend who bought her house using Pix. The system just works for any transfer amount. And it's so easy to use. Its speed is truly baffling, and so is its reliability. Never have I failed to make a Pix payment because of downtime. I never cease to be ama…
> Cryptocurrencies don't stand a chance. Now, try to use Pix outside of Brazil - it's not even used in other Mercosur countries, what's the chance of having that adopted in other countries... And, that's problem #1. How much do you trust your government with your money? A system like Pix don't stand a chance to get a worldwide adoption - maybe people are naive but governments won't unify to adopt a common system cont…
Re: Brazil's government-run payments system has become dominant
#480Earlier quoted context omitted.
I agree with your skepticism about CBDC, but it takes little to no effort to implement your own CBDC, and in the small chance that they did somehow take off, then you have a platform you can export to other countries. > I'm just questioning the bundling with central bank money In most countries excluding the US, EU, UK, and Canada, the Central Bank also sets financial regulations and provides the infra backbone for f…
> By having central banks attached to these projects, it helps build a testbed so private sector players can then extend on. Again, you can get all of that without needing a CBDC, just have the central bank build and run a regular payment system. It gets substantially more complex once you make it a CBDC, making the chance of success even smaller. For what gain? You actually introduce some tangible risks for the fina…
> Again, you can get all of that without needing a CBDC
Yep. Pretty much.
> For what gain?
Because if X country is doing it, Y country should do it as well, and then export the associated infra to a less developed country. By the 2020s, it became a completion between Chinese vs Indian consultancies (ay least in Africa)
You have to remember the Cryptocurrency bubble was going strong until 2023 when the FTX scandal happened.
Hiring a team of 20-30 engineers isn't that expensive for a moonshot that makes it easier to negotiate if that moonshot somehow actually has an impact on global finance.
Of course, most moonshots fail, but it still doesn't hurt to have something back of pocket or build some infra if needed.