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Brazil's government-run payments system has become dominant

economist.com

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Re: Brazil's government-run payments system has become dominant

#461

Post by c7b »

alephnerd wrote: post #457
c7b wrote: post #454

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Other than the EU and UK, which other major CB is considering CBDCs alone? The ones I mentioned, eg, Canada [0], China [1]. But it's really most of them [2], the US is rather the exception. [0] https://www.bankofcanada.ca/digitaldollar/ [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_renminbi [2] https://cbdctracker.org/

China has backed UnionPay since the mid-2000s - the backbone is similar to that for UPI and Pix. And most of the countries on that list are either implementing their own payment infra or leveraging India, Brazil, Russia, or China's. It doesn't hurt to have a CBDC - it gives you a seat at the table when norms and global regulations are made.

There's a difference between what you call DPI (which I called payment system) and central bank money. A CBDC is both, Pix and UPI are only DPI sans central bank money (so neither is a CBDC). My point is that you can get all of the benefits of having DPI without needing to incur any of the headaches that come with central bank money (financial stability risks, holding limits, private sector opposition,...). I'm all for DPI, I'm just questioning the bundling with central bank money.

Re: Brazil's government-run payments system has become dominant

#462

Post by vitorgrs »

cesarb wrote: post #208
xenospn wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

QR codes are problematic. First of all, you can’t really verify it with your naked eye. It can take you to a fake site that looks just like the original. Using phone numbers is vastly superior.

> It can take you to a fake site that looks just like the original. At least with PIX, you scan the QR code directly on your online banking app, so there's no risk of going to a "fake site" (and the app also displays the information extracted fron the QR code, it's not a blind payment).

There's also "Pix Copia e Cola" (Pix Copy and Paste)

Re: Brazil's government-run payments system has become dominant

#463

Post by vitorgrs »

weinzierl wrote: post #103
SwiftyBug wrote: post #8

I've been living in Brazil for the last 20 years. Pix revolutionised the way we transact in Brazil. I've used Pix to pay for things that cost only cents, and I have a friend who bought her house using Pix. The system just works for any transfer amount. And it's so easy to use. Its speed is truly baffling, and so is its reliability. Never have I failed to make a Pix payment because of downtime. I never cease to be ama…

Is there any way to use Pix as a tourist without Brazilian tax number or permanent residence. Technically a pre-paid option should be possible, but I could not find anything about something in that vein.

Banco Rendimento supports it, I believe.

Re: Brazil's government-run payments system has become dominant

#464

Post by alephnerd »

c7b wrote: post #461
alephnerd wrote: post #457

Earlier quoted context omitted.

China has backed UnionPay since the mid-2000s - the backbone is similar to that for UPI and Pix. And most of the countries on that list are either implementing their own payment infra or leveraging India, Brazil, Russia, or China's. It doesn't hurt to have a CBDC - it gives you a seat at the table when norms and global regulations are made.

There's a difference between what you call DPI (which I called payment system) and central bank money. A CBDC is both, Pix and UPI are only DPI sans central bank money (so neither is a CBDC). My point is that you can get all of the benefits of having DPI without needing to incur any of the headaches that come with central bank money (financial stability risks, holding limits, private sector opposition,...). I'm all f…

I agree with your skepticism about CBDC, but it takes little to no effort to implement your own CBDC, and in the small chance that they did somehow take off, then you have a platform you can export to other countries.

> I'm just questioning the bundling with central bank money

In most countries excluding the US, EU, UK, and Canada, the Central Bank also sets financial regulations and provides the infra backbone for fintech, and in some cases still own commercial banks.

By having central banks attached to these projects, it helps build a testbed so private sector players can then extend on.

Most countries aren't like the US where private sector investors are open to investing in innovations, so it would fall to the Central Bank to begin testing and implementing these products.

Re: Brazil's government-run payments system has become dominant

#465

Post by dwattttt »

mhluongo wrote: post #353
AlienRobot wrote: post #275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Does it work internationally? Does crypto? You may have heard of this thing called "tariffs" lately. Even purchases of software licenses are tariffed in Brazil[1]. The average person purchasing goods with crypto is just going to ignore this and several similar laws. If you say crypto works to transact internationally, keep in mind: so does TF2 hats. 1: https://www.machadoassociados.com.br/en/2021/05/brazilian-fe...

Indeed, TF2 hats and gift cards appear to do something well that this system doesn't :)

I note that that thing is not "abide by the law"

Re: Brazil's government-run payments system has become dominant

#466

Post by uselesswords »

nirui wrote: post #206

I'm thinking, maybe controversially, centralized national payment service like this should be government-run based on my experience with Alipay which is a digital payment service in China. Due to it's commercial origin, Alipay is filled with unwanted ads and traps. Almost every time I made a payment with it, a pop up prompts me to enlist their Ant Financial LOAN service either now, or being prompted for the same ques…

Why is it that apps in the US are not as (overtly) commercialized or gamified (like Temu) as some of their chinese-counterparts? Is american culture just less tolerant of it? You would think there is more profit to be made by doing so which would be very capitalistic in a sense.

Re: Brazil's government-run payments system has become dominant

#467

Post by dkga »

Saying this as a user but especially as a central banker and financial economist: Pix is truly amazing, and in fact an inspiration for many other countries. Beyond the payment sphere, we are only now beginning to scratch the surface on the effects Pix (and fast payment methods in general) can have on the economy.

Re: Brazil's government-run payments system has become dominant

#468

Post by vitorgrs »

dormento wrote: post #109
earnesti wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you elaborate on the technicals? Is it a phone app? Does it work through QR codes or NFC? Is there a Pix "card"?

Brazilian here. - no card - technically not a specific app, its a payment method that any app with a checkout flow (for example) can chose to implement. - you register some id with your financial institution of choice (any of CPF - equivalent to SSN, CNPJ - for businesses, phone number, email or a randomly generated key). - keys are fully portable, as in you can revoke em or change the bank institution they're associ…

There's NFC support now... You can now use Pix inside Google Pay (with NFC or QR code etc as well).

Re: Brazil's government-run payments system has become dominant

#469

Post by luqtas »

forinti wrote: post #399
luqtas wrote: post #359

Earlier quoted context omitted.

most places i visited (remote rural places like districts of > 300 people up to big cities) have a rechargeable card system where you can buy at any terminal some buses in the surburbs of big cities only accept cards nowadays and you can recharge it online in 3 minutes (ofc if you are a citizen... brazilian goverment websites is a huge UX pile of shit; police, mail etc.)

These systems are all built to help the bus owners, not the passengers. Usually you have to go register for a card somewhere. It's just not practical, especially if you're just visiting. I've never seen a place where you could buy a card at a newsstand for a week or something like that.

if you are visiting a city and you are exclusively using the bus, in 2 or 3 travels the card pays itself for not dealing with coins and physical money... you can literally buy them in 5 minutes, no need to have a CPF exposed or whatever [they are called TOURIST CARDS for a reason]

around Paraty -> Angra dos Reis region you can literally visit/stop in more than 25 beach spots with the buses who circulate that area

and it's really nice that it helps the bus drivers. it even saves some time on embarking, which can add up in longer routes. godspeed on a single card (state agnostic) for the entire public transportation system (metro, bus, trains) in Brazil

Re: Brazil's government-run payments system has become dominant

#470

Post by vitorgrs »

abecedarius wrote: post #337
cesarb wrote: post #331

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Is there any confirmation of the persons name? Yes, and it's a small privacy leak in Pix: it shows the person's name and part of their CPF.

That doesn't sound small?

Before Pix, people already needed to put the full number, the CPF, and Bank agency number, so it's an improvement compared to old Brazilian transfers.
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