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Self-Driving Teslas Are Fatally Rear-Ending Motorcyclists More Than Any Other

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Re: Self-Driving Teslas Are Fatally Rear-Ending Motorcyclists More Than Any Other

#181

The point I soured on Musk was when he ditched radar/lidar and tried to go with camera's alone. This made me realize he is not the genius he is made out to be but instead he is a fraud/charlatan and over the years his statements on different topics have only hardened that belief. Why the fuck would you want ai cars to be the same as humans you should want them to be many times better and radarr/lidar sonarr type tech…

I'm a roboticist who had learned from researchers involved in the 2007 DARPA urban challenge. The key takeaway from that event was that every single car that finished the race was equipped with the 3D velodyne LIDAR. It was that technology that enabled driverless cars to work as a concept.

Why? Because it provided information that people had to infer, and that you couldn't easily get from camera. So absent the human inference engine that allowed human drivers to work, we would have to rely on highly-precise measurement instruments like LiDAR instead.

Musk's huge error was in thinking "Well humans have eyes and those are kind of like cameras, therefore all you need are cameras to drive"

But no! Eyes are not cameras, they are extensions of our brains. And we use more than our eyes to navigate roads, in fact there's a huge social aspect to driving. It's not just an engineering challenge but a social one. So from the get-go he's solving the wrong problem.

I knew this guy was full of it when he started talking about driverless cars being 5 years out in 2015. Just utter nonsense to anyone who was actually in that field, especially if he thought he could do it without LiDAR. He called his system "autopilot" which was deceptive, but I was completely off him when he released "full self driving - beta" onto public streets. Reckless insanity. What made me believe he is criminally insane is this particular timeline (these are headlines, you can search them if you want to read the stories):

  2016 - Self-Driving Tesla Was Involved in Fatal Crash, U.S. Says
  2016 - Tesla working on Autopilot radar changes after crash
  2017 - NTSB Issues Final Report and Comments on Fatal Tesla Autopilot Crash
  2019 - Tesla didn’t fix an Autopilot problem for three years, and now another person is dead
  2021 - Inside Tesla as Elon Musk Pushed an Unflinching Vision for Self-Driving Cars Tesla announces transition to ‘Tesla Vision’ without radar, warns of limitations at first
  2022 - Former Head Of Tesla AI Explains Why They’ve Removed Sensors; Others Differ
  2022 - Tesla Dropping Radar Was a Mistake, Here is Why
  2023 - Tesla reportedly saw an uptick in crashes and mistakes after Elon Musk removed radar from its cars
  2023 - Elon Musk Overruled Tesla Engineers Who Said Removing Radar Would Be Problematic: Report
  2023 - How Elon Musk knocked Tesla’s ‘Full Self-Driving’ off course
  2023 - The final 11 seconds of a fatal Tesla Autopilot crash
Now I get to add TFA to the chronical.

The man and his cars are a menace to society. Tesla would be so much further along on driverless cars without Musk.

Re: Self-Driving Teslas Are Fatally Rear-Ending Motorcyclists More Than Any Other

#182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Tesla could very well have the best FSD software on the market Tesla could very well have the best FSD marketing on the software. And that's dangerous. Data point: the "First To Gain U.S. Approval For Level 3 Automated Driving System" is ... Mercedes-Benz https://www.forbes.com/sites/kyleedward/2023/09/28/mercedes-... The second will be, IDK, maybe BMW? https://www.bmwblog.com/2024/06/25/bmw-approval-for-combinin..…

> First To Gain U.S. Approval For Level 3 Automated Driving System It’s actually more a testament to Mercedes Benz’s ability to navigate regulatory slog. VW would’ve passed emissions if the technicians didn’t take it out of the lab to test for on-road conditions.

Its Mercedes believing in their tech that they take responsibility if it fails.

Re: Self-Driving Teslas Are Fatally Rear-Ending Motorcyclists More Than Any Other

#183
It's pretty impressive that we have self-driving cars that takes us this far with Just cameras. But it probably won't get any better than this without a revamp.

That said, what if we make these self driving tools fully available to drivers. Drivers are pretty good at driving already with with relatively short training. Give them the superpowers of teslas like 360 view, predictive object path, and object detection and you have super drivers.

Re: Self-Driving Teslas Are Fatally Rear-Ending Motorcyclists More Than Any Other

#184

The other comment pointing this out has been (ridiculously) flagged, so I'll repeat the point that was made: The analysis is useless if it doesn't account for the base rate fallacy ( https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Base_rate_fallacy ) The first thing I thought before even reading the analysis was "Does the author account for it?" And indeed he makes no mention that he did. So after reading the whole article I have no…

Base rate fallacy is not relevant here.

There are 5 dead people who would be alive today had tesla not pushed this to the market.

Re: Self-Driving Teslas Are Fatally Rear-Ending Motorcyclists More Than Any Other

#185

The point I soured on Musk was when he ditched radar/lidar and tried to go with camera's alone. This made me realize he is not the genius he is made out to be but instead he is a fraud/charlatan and over the years his statements on different topics have only hardened that belief. Why the fuck would you want ai cars to be the same as humans you should want them to be many times better and radarr/lidar sonarr type tech…

This was purely an effort to improve margins on the cars that they tried to sell with other types of rationale. From the way I've seen him operate his companies, treat his employees, and now work with the government, he has a high tolerance for risk paired with a very low tolerance for perceived inefficiencies plus too little patience to fully understand the problem. He really embodies the ethos of "move fast and bre…

To quote Black Adder: Some of you may die, but some of us will live!

Re: Self-Driving Teslas Are Fatally Rear-Ending Motorcyclists More Than Any Other

#186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lane filtering solves this fear. Should be legal nation wide.

Lane filtering is apparently "lane splitting" at lower speeds.

Been riding for two decades and my understanding has been that 'splitting' is the yank term and 'filtering' is the britbong one.

Re: Self-Driving Teslas Are Fatally Rear-Ending Motorcyclists More Than Any Other

#187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Put another way - would giving humans superhuman vision significantly reduce the accident rate? Yes? Incredibly? If people had 360° instant 3D awareness of all objects, that would avoid so many accidents. No more blind spots, no more missing objects because you were looking in one spot instead of another. No more missing dark objects at night. It would be a gigantic improvement in the rate of accidents.

Idk, many people are just bad at driving due to impatience. They don’t leave enough space/time to react even if they did have enough awareness

Sure but that's not all people.

If you assume a constant rate of attention, but then massively increase what people are aware of during that attention, that's a massive increase in safety.

Safety is affected by lots of factors. Increasing any of them increases safety -- you don't need to increase all of them to get improvements.

Re: Self-Driving Teslas Are Fatally Rear-Ending Motorcyclists More Than Any Other

#188

I’m normally quite skeptical of these kinds of “Tesla More Dangerous Than Other Brands” headlines since they tend to be B.S. But this seems like a pretty legitimate accusation, and certainly a well researched write-up at the very least.

What gets me is that there are no other brands in Tesla's league. Tesla is the only consumer car that has "FSD" level ability. The competitors have to use pre-mapped roads and availability is spotty at best. There is also risk as Chevy already deprecated their first gen "FSD", leaving early adopters with gimped ability and shutout from future expansions.

Nobody has level 5. Waymo did 5 million miles in 2024 with nobody behind the wheel. Tesla did way more but required a human driver due to frequent disengagement. These are not the same. https://electrek.co/2024/09/26/tesla-full-self-driving-third...

Level 4 is a commercially viable product. Mapping allows verification by simulation before deployment. Tesla offers level 3, which is not monetizable beyond being a gimmick.

Re: Self-Driving Teslas Are Fatally Rear-Ending Motorcyclists More Than Any Other

#189
post #20

This problem has been solved more than a decade ago by radar sensors (standard on many mid-range cars at the time). They detect imminent collisions with almost perfect accuracy and very little false positives. Having better sensor data is always going to beat trying to massage crappy data into something useful.

Radars are not as good as you think. They generally can't detect stationary objects, have problems with reflections, most of them are VERY low resolution, and so on.

The "with almost perfect accuracy and very little false positives" part is not true.

If you look at euroncap data, you'll see how most cars are not close to 100 in Safety Assist category (and Teslas with just vision are among the top). And these EuroNCAP are fairly easy and ideal. So it's clearly not a solved problem, as you portray.

https://www.euroncap.com/en/ratings-rewards/latest-safety-ra...

Re: Self-Driving Teslas Are Fatally Rear-Ending Motorcyclists More Than Any Other

#190

Just think of the liability you would have if your Tesla hit someone. It is crazy that me that anyone trusts FSD given the downside.

My worry cuts the other way… FSD is more globally and consistently attentive than I am.
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