A university president makes a case against cowardice • Hacker News Board

Re: A university president makes a case against cowardice

#511

Post by ceejayoz » Fri, Apr 04, 2025, 4:16 PM UTC

mathgradthrow wrote: post #506

ceejayoz wrote: post #493

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Mahmoud Khalil lied on hus visa application about being a member of UNRWA. He was briefly an unpaid intern. https://studyinthestates.dhs.gov/2015/11/uscis-explains-if-u... > USCIS is frequently asked whether an unpaid intern needs to complete Form I-9. In general, an unpaid intern does not need to complete Form I-9 unless he or she will receive remuneration, which is something of value such as no-cost or reduced-co…

I'm not arguing in favor of el salvadoran prisons, but he's not in an el salvadoran prison. He's being charged with being in violation of his Visa. And yes, I do expect you to report the time that you "Interned" at the UNRWA. This organization has always operated tightly with Hamas and the PA, and if I'm establishing your background, I need to know about it so that I can investigate it, period. I don't need to know a…

> I'm not arguing in favor of el salvadoran prisons, but he's not in an el salvadoran prison.

He might wind up there; a judge has halted the deportation process for now. The administration is demonstrably sending folks (some with no criminal record: https://www.the-independent.com/news/world/americas/us-polit...) there, including via "clerical error" they can't undo (https://apnews.com/video/white-house-says-maryland-resident-...). Oopsie daisy!

> He's being charged with being in violation of his Visa.

He has not been charged at all. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detention_of_Mahmoud_Khalil

"Khalil has not been charged with a crime and is not alleged to have engaged in any activity legally prohibited to U.S. residents... Removal procedures were initiated under section 237(a)(4)(C)(i) of the Immigration and Nationality Act of 1952, which permits deportation of lawful residents if the Secretary of State believes their presence risks "potentially serious adverse foreign policy consequences"."

> I don't need to know about your affiliations with hackernews, because hackernews is not closely affiliated with designated terror organizations.

The form doesn't say that. It says anything, ever.

> Now that the UNRWA is properly designated as a terrorist organization itself, do you think it would be appropriate to lie about your affiliations with them on a visa application?

When did the US designate UNRWA as a terrorist organization?

I don't think they ever have, but they certainly hadn't back in 2023 when he applied.

(The US was UNRWA's single largest donor that year, in fact. https://www.unrwa.org/sites/default/files/top_20_donors_over...)

> Mahmoud Khalil is in an American jail awaiting trial.

Having not been charged with any crimes, he is in immigration detention awaiting a court hearing.

Re: A university president makes a case against cowardice

#512

Post by efitz » Fri, Apr 04, 2025, 4:16 PM UTC

Cowardice is in the eye of the beholder and the article is self-serving.

The article makes the point that it's cowardly to cave to administration pressure to limit the activities of anti-Israel/Pro-Palestine protesters.

Someone on the other side of the issue could make the argument "it is cowardly to kowtow to a small but vocal minority who justifies interfering with other students' ability to learn, as 'free speech'".

It is dishonest to describe non-speech activity such as intimidation and forceful prevention of access, as "speech", even if you like the motivation or outcome. "Speech" is talking with words. Physically using your body to prevent someone else from acting in a desired way, is something other than "speech".

Re: A university president makes a case against cowardice

#513

Post by paulryanrogers » Fri, Apr 04, 2025, 4:16 PM UTC

vimax wrote: post #508

paulryanrogers wrote: post #495

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Harassment is bad. Extraordinary rendition is bad. One of them is significantly worse than the other. And the side complaining about A whilst celebrating B is significantly more hypocritical.

What about the side that complains about A and complains about B, and complains that constant polarizing rhetoric has been ratcheting up to get us from the less bad A to the very bad B?

Ah yes, it is the left's fault the right is spiraling the country into despotism. Feeling a lot of "Why do you make them hit you?" energy in this thread.

Re: A university president makes a case against cowardice

#514

Post by disambiguation » Fri, Apr 04, 2025, 4:19 PM UTC

InDubioProRubio wrote: post #336

disambiguation wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The political and ideological divide speaks for itself, but on behalf of the common folk universities have been failing their core mission - to provide the people with a quality education. The inversion and disconnect between the cost of tuition and economic outcomes is stunning. Too many kids who don't know better are pressured into pursuing higher education and taking on massive debt, only to graduate without any j…

Their core mission is to provide society with a endless surplus of food and energy from air

No such thing as a free lunch! Universities exist for the benefit of society, not the other way around.

Re: A university president makes a case against cowardice

#515

Post by archagon » Fri, Apr 04, 2025, 4:19 PM UTC

milesrout wrote: post #374

archagon wrote: post #333

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, and why not open an Institute of Enhanced Interrogation Studies while you’re at it? Ugh.

Because torturing people is illegal and contrary to our fundamental values, while deporting illegal immigrants is a very popular and sensible policy that is uncontroversial everywhere except the United States of Exceptionalism.

Torturing people was considered very cool and very legal until quite recently. Some of the leaders involved in Iraq and Afghanistan era torture are still in positions of power. And I would not be shocked in the slightest if it came back under Trump II.

Re: A university president makes a case against cowardice

#516

Post by DiggyJohnson » Fri, Apr 04, 2025, 4:21 PM UTC

salt-thrower wrote: post #487

xhkkffbf wrote: post #482

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Your argument is so out of touch I can only assume it’s being made in bad faith. Many of the pro-Palestinian protesters are also Jewish. Equating all Jewish people with Israel and Zionism is insidious and misleading.

What on Earth? How is their argument out of touch or made in bad faith? It's a reasonable and popular line of reasoning that you disagree with strongly. Assuming the best possible interpretation is one of our community guidelines, please follow it.

Re: A university president makes a case against cowardice

#517

Post by wat10000 » Fri, Apr 04, 2025, 4:21 PM UTC

sequoia wrote: post #49

A lot of Americans support these attacks on universities. Why do people harbour this much animosity towards these institutions? Is there anything they could have done differently in the past decade or two to have broader sympathy now, or is people's ambivalence towards elite universities 100% irrational?

One thing I haven’t seen anyone mention in the replies. There are millions of conservative parents who sent their children to college and then “lost” those children when they turned into a “liberal.”

The ideas that it’s ok if your child becomes a liberal, or that there might be good reasons why people who undertake higher education often become less conservative, are too horrible to contemplate. So they settle for “universities are bad.”

Re: A university president makes a case against cowardice

#518

Post by archagon » Fri, Apr 04, 2025, 4:23 PM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #398

hausrat wrote: post #369

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

If you are shocked you might consider getting out of your bubble. A recent poll shows Americans support Trump’s deportation program 58-42: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/opinion-poll-trump-economy-tari... Meanwhile, 68% support the Supreme Court’s ban on Harvard’s affirmative action admissions policies: https://thehill.com/homenews/education/4411246-majority-supp... Universities, as institutions, were actively working…

Millions of people think the Earth is flat and that dinosaurs roamed the Earth alongside humans. Should universities be teaching that as well?

Popularity is a poor barometer for educational value and policy.

Re: A university president makes a case against cowardice

#519

Post by sequoia » Fri, Apr 04, 2025, 4:24 PM UTC

Sloowms wrote: post #399

sequoia wrote: post #49

A lot of Americans support these attacks on universities. Why do people harbour this much animosity towards these institutions? Is there anything they could have done differently in the past decade or two to have broader sympathy now, or is people's ambivalence towards elite universities 100% irrational?

Wait, there are attacks on universities? Or are we just using that word for any expression of free speech?

I'm referring to threats to pull hundreds of thousands of dollars of funding if certain demands aren't met. But yes, there are also plenty of rhetorical attacks.

Re: A university president makes a case against cowardice

#520

Post by Yasuraka » Fri, Apr 04, 2025, 4:26 PM UTC

DiggyJohnson wrote: post #516

salt-thrower wrote: post #487

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your argument is so out of touch I can only assume it’s being made in bad faith. Many of the pro-Palestinian protesters are also Jewish. Equating all Jewish people with Israel and Zionism is insidious and misleading.

What on Earth? How is their argument out of touch or made in bad faith? It's a reasonable and popular line of reasoning that you disagree with strongly. Assuming the best possible interpretation is one of our community guidelines, please follow it.

The second paragraph answers your second question, actually.