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How each pillar of the First Amendment is under attack

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Re: How each pillar of the First Amendment is under attack

#471

Post by amitport »

tombert wrote: post #3

I understand why these things have to be posted, but I would be lying if I said that I wasn't utterly exhausted by the constant shit that the Trump administration is spitting at us. I mean, I get it, bad shit needs to be reported on, the Trump admin does a lot of bad shit, it makes sense, but it's just extremely tiring. I know that's kind of the point, to bombard us with all this shit all at once so that we are exhau…

People voted for Trump because the democratic party is THAT bad. Instead of keeping attacking Trump maybe it is time to ponder what is it about the current democratic party that made so many people disapprove of them.

Re: How each pillar of the First Amendment is under attack

#472

Post by soraminazuki »

aprilthird2021 wrote: post #307
hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an American, I agree - I'm pretty surprised at how nakedly transparent the whole thing has been. One basic example - I thought pretty much everyone agreed that at least some level of due process is just inherent to the rights of everyone in the US. When I hear administration figures arguing that flying the Venezuelans to El Salvadoran prisons is a good thing because "they're really bad dudes", I think "OK, and we'…

They started this tactic of "They're bad dudes trust us don't need a trial" during the Bush administration and many many people pointed out this would come to our shores soon, and it did and it's here again.

Yeah, not prosecuting serious violations of law like war crimes, tortue, and mass surveillance was a serious mistake that lead to this situation. It reinforced a culture of impunity for those in power.

Because people allowed this to happen, the current administration is now more emboldened than its recent predecessors ever have been.

Re: How each pillar of the First Amendment is under attack

#473

Post by galaxyLogic »

How do you recognize a fascist, or whatever you call people who want less rather than more democracy?

I think a good rule is this: They won't agree to disagree with anybody.

Why? Because they have to suppress free speech of others, to gain and stay in power.

Re: How each pillar of the First Amendment is under attack

#474

Post by cvz »

facile3232 wrote: post #376

I don't really care, tbh. There are better rights to fight for: food, shelter, education, healthcare. If said freedom of speech had been to be used to fight for materially meaningful rights, I'd be a big fan. Most Americans never bothered to use the right in any way that improved this country. You don't use it, you lose it. As it stands most people associate it with the right to behave like a dick in public.

The reason you don't see "free speech" used for those causes isn't because they don't rely on free speech. It's because advocacy for them is so clearly protected as free speech that it isn't even a question. There have been times when that protection was a question in the U.S., like when protesting wars or segregation laws.

Without the right to say something, there is no legal way to organize or to demand any other right.

Edited to remove an unwarranted statement at the beginning of this comment.

Re: How each pillar of the First Amendment is under attack

#475

Post by rockskon »

sapphicsnail wrote: post #313
slibhb wrote: post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Freedom of speech is just the easiest way to have plausible deniability when directly or indirectly defending otherwise indefensible positions. The idea that it's somehow suspicious to be in favor of free speech has got to be one of the worst developments in American politics. And, for whatever it's worth, every vocal "free speech person" I know doesn't like the current administation. Some people actually just have…

I have yet to see a free speech absolutist express concern about the government and media suppressing Gaza protestors or LGBTQ books being banned or anything else that affects the left. Doesn't seem very principled to me.

That's speaks more to your social and news circles more than anything. I see plenty of condemnation of the Trump administration from free speech activists for their actions against Gaza Protestors and LGBTQ book bans.

Re: How each pillar of the First Amendment is under attack

#476

Post by lostdog »

mptest wrote: post #388
lostdog wrote: post #320

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not that complicated. In 2016 America though Bernie was a crazy leftist, and didn't vote for him. He did pick up more votes than expected as a protest against Hillary, and he was just starting to get buy-in on his policies. Then he went out and sold America on some social democrat ideas. He did ok in 2020, but lost, partially because Democratic voters were afraid that Republicans would see him as a crazy leftist…

Looking all the way downstream, to the end result (voting numbers) is much less valuable vein to mine for insight than how he was portrayed in media, online and in legacy media, before votes were cast. That provides much more insight in to how his campaign failed, in my eyes at least. I don't have all the historical polling data to say this with certainty, but his policies were pretty much always supported by a major…

I don't 100% disagree, but...

Consider how Obama got piled on for a minor tweak to healthcare laws, and gets called a socialist for ever mentioning that maybe the rich aren't helping out enough.

I've gotta be skeptical that Bernie's policies were majority supported at the time, and any investigation would have to look at the evidence, and especially the polling questions, really carefully.

Re: How each pillar of the First Amendment is under attack

#477

Post by ImPostingOnHN »

throwawaymaths wrote: post #214
LPisGood wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This article is about the entire first amendment, which has to do with more than free speech.

transparency and the obligation to document did not really exist as concepts in statecraft when the first amendment was conceived. there is a very tenuous relationship with the right to petition. perhaps we should create an amendment enshrining those values (as some states have in their constutions) the best lede is the one where visas are being revoked. clear abuse of the amendment. even the libel ones, while shitty…

> there is a very tenuous relationship with the right to petition. perhaps we should create an amendment enshrining those values

The USA already did: The first amendment literally includes the right to petition one's government, along with the other rights listed in the article as section headers.

> just because the president is president does not mean they must relinquish the right to legal redress for existing protections that the rest of us enjoy.

Libel of public figures literally requires a higher standard than "the rest of us".

Re: How each pillar of the First Amendment is under attack

#478

Post by nine_k »

cammikebrown wrote: post #435
milesrout wrote: post #405

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody is banning books. Removing inappropriate material from school libraries isn't book banning. Have you seen some of the books that are being removed? That books with graphic depictions of aren't appropriate for children is a view perfectly compatible with strong support for freedom of expression.

They’re literally banning The Handmaid’s Tale. Not good https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2023/02/margaret-a...

Quoting the article:

> It’s shunning time in Madison County, Virginia, where the school board recently banished my novel The Handmaid’s Tale from the shelves of the high-school library.

Note: a school library. A student can go to a regular library and check out this book, if they are really interested.

If you want to see what real book banning looks like, read the list: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_books_banned_by_govern...

This involves removing books from public libraries nationwide (not just school libraries of one county), banning of sale, and sometimes criminalizing and prosecuting private possession of the book.

The US is fortunately quite far from such a sorry state.

Re: How each pillar of the First Amendment is under attack

#479

Post by travisgriggs »

Back and forth.

Here's what I see. Spend some time with older people now days (disclosure, I am 54, male, and heartsick). Look at what older people watch. Talk to those that are anywhere near MAGA ideas, you'll find that it has nothing to do with an America that is great again. It has everything to do with "make me great/relevant again."

Now go to Wikipedia, pull out a your favorite scripting language/spreadsheet (you're a programmer, because you read HN, right?). Look at the total popular vote, scroll down to the "by age" group. Figure out how many votes each side got in each group (it will only be a relative approximation, because they don't give sub-percentage values). Now do a running total. You'll see very clearly who was winning by age until the older people in the country showed up (in great numbers) to vote. The people who will be here the least long, and have the least to suffer for the consequences have sold out the country in a colossal fashion.

I wonder if history has every created such a strong case for justified generational angst.

Re: How each pillar of the First Amendment is under attack

#480

Post by galaxyLogic »

vvpan wrote: post #414
kopirgan wrote: post #399

Not really clear what this article is about. If it's about using Signal app to escape FoIA it's odd not to discuss who actually started that or use of personal servers in basements & shredding mails when caught. If it's about the leak which was inadvertent even if a sack-able offence then that's nothing to do with 1st or any amendment. If it's about free speech in general, to have any trace of integrity, objectivity…

Who invented cancel culture?

What is "cancel culture"?
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