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Job market for a 30+ person learning to code?

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Re: Job market for a 30+ person learning to code?

#51

Post by rburgosnavas »

geoffschmidt wrote: post #18
callmeed wrote: post #7

This is an interesting question and one I've thought about a lot too. I'm 37 and an experienced developer/entrepreneur. I've been self-employed for 12+ years but if I ever had to "get a real job", it's something to think about. First off, remember that it's not legal for a US employer to ask your age. They can only ask if you're over 18. Of course, if you want to be sly about it, you'll need to craft your resume care…

Two other issues that seem to come up in the bay area are "culture fit" (which is sometimes a euphemism for "we want to have fun at work and it doesn't sound very fun to hang out with someone who is old") and "trajectory" (which is a euphemism for "if you were really an A player, you'd have a senior role by now; since you don't, there must be something wrong with you, even if we can't figure out precisely what it is…

The "culture fit" is definitely an aspect that I consider intimidating, and yes, I live in the Bay Area. I know it shouldn't be intimidating in my case because I think I'm good at accommodating myself to an environment pretty well.

Re: Job market for a 30+ person learning to code?

#52

Post by medusa666 »

Lots of great advice already given, the gist of it being to focus on what you can DO for your employer. On that note, please read _Ask The Headhunter_, or browse his web site.

Also ... think about what your 37 years of life and work experience might bring to a tech company beyond the ability to sit behind a monitor all day. For instance, if you've had some people-facing experience (and who hasn't), you might be much better qualified for a sales engineer or other customer-facing role than some 22-year-old would be. Many customers will prefer to deal with someone who looks and acts more "grown up."

Right now, you need to focus on your self-confidence, and not "fear." The demand for competent developers - which has nothing to do with classes taken - is insatiable.

Re: Job market for a 30+ person learning to code?

#53

Post by rburgosnavas »

donnfelker wrote: post #19

1. Learn to code (You're doing that now) 2. Write down ideas (10 a day) about businesses you can start with software (thank you James Altucher for that tip) 3. Once you have a solid idea (dont do your first one) start writing an MVP. Not sure what an MVP is? Listen to the Lean Startup book on Audible (or buy the real book if you like to read) 4. Build a MVP product and ship it. Get a couple customers. 5. Work hard. 6…

Ah, "MVP", a new term to add to my repertoire, haha. Your advice is very valuable sir, thank you.

I'm well aware of the concept of sitting down with a piece of paper and a pen and trying to come up with ideas for projects. Unfortunately I'm struggling with the right balance of "reading to learn" and "doing to learn". I know that doing things, implementing ideas, etc., is probably the most productive and beneficial thing I can do for myself, but I get into this "I most read about this and that" loop that is not efficient.

The little amount of time I've spent trying to come up with projects have been unsuccessful but only because I do not spend considerable amount of time brainstorming. Your advice on how to approach this is excellent. As I wrote in my updated YC profile, I think we need more music apps for Android, but real music apps, not toys, so this is something I should put my attention on.

Re: Job market for a 30+ person learning to code?

#54

Post by rburgosnavas »

wturner wrote: post #38

I'm in exactly in the same boat as you but I'm focused on javascript and HTML-5 technologies. I started off doing 5 months of C++ and realized that my ability to make anything tangible (and more importantly enjoyable) with it probably wouldn't come to fruition for at least half a decade. I decided to focus on HTML-5 technologies and a niche focus on audio based applications as a catalyst to learn and have fun. I will…

That's great and encouraging story. Thanks for that. I see that in the end you sell yourself honestly as someone who lives and breathes hers or his field and that learning is an obsession, then you have an advantage.

Re: Job market for a 30+ person learning to code?

#55

Post by rburgosnavas »

vineet wrote: post #36

When people are looking for older developers they are often looking for experience - for someone who have enough technical understand to command respect and lead a team of less experienced developers. I do not believe that this first group would be the right fit for you. However, there are some developers that are worth their weight in gold. In my opinion, age does not even come up in such discussions. These people a…

Awesome, I had to look up what you meant by 'shipping'. Thanks for that. This is a pretty interesting article on that subject http://www.joelonsoftware.com/items/2009/09/23.html

Re: Job market for a 30+ person learning to code?

#56

Post by abc_lisper »

djtriptych wrote: post #16

tl;dr - Ship something, THEN look for a job. In the real world, your age is a handicap, no matter what people say. Look for differentiators. A great one is the ability to point to something reasonably complicated that you built from scratch and shipped. Very few programmers can do that, and the ones that can are a class above in the eyes of many employers. One thing you have going for you is actual life experience th…

Don't read the entire VM spec. This thinking of knowing something inside out helps you how to use it is bunk. You don't have to know the how the rules of chess came into being to play chess.

Or you could go that way, and do it as the parent says, and end up like me, somewhat dazed and confused a decade later.

Just because you invented radio does not mean the programming you put on it is the best. Realize that programming(computer) is a skill that most can achieve only through rigorous grind.

There, I saved a few years of frustration to you. Knowledge is power. Amen.

Re: Job market for a 30+ person learning to code?

#57

Post by vineet »

rburgosnavas wrote: post #55
vineet wrote: post #36

When people are looking for older developers they are often looking for experience - for someone who have enough technical understand to command respect and lead a team of less experienced developers. I do not believe that this first group would be the right fit for you. However, there are some developers that are worth their weight in gold. In my opinion, age does not even come up in such discussions. These people a…

Awesome, I had to look up what you meant by 'shipping'. Thanks for that. This is a pretty interesting article on that subject http://www.joelonsoftware.com/items/2009/09/23.html

Yup. 'Shipping' comes from the old days, when we were trying to ship a product to (from development to users). In the web era, this is as simple as publishing to a server, but you very quickly realize all the tiny things that you need to do to make something that people actually want to you.

Re: Job market for a 30+ person learning to code?

#58

Post by djtriptych »

abc_lisper wrote: post #56
djtriptych wrote: post #16

tl;dr - Ship something, THEN look for a job. In the real world, your age is a handicap, no matter what people say. Look for differentiators. A great one is the ability to point to something reasonably complicated that you built from scratch and shipped. Very few programmers can do that, and the ones that can are a class above in the eyes of many employers. One thing you have going for you is actual life experience th…

Don't read the entire VM spec. This thinking of knowing something inside out helps you how to use it is bunk. You don't have to know the how the rules of chess came into being to play chess. Or you could go that way, and do it as the parent says, and end up like me, somewhat dazed and confused a decade later. Just because you invented radio does not mean the programming you put on it is the best. Realize that program…

I have to disagree strongly here. I do believe understanding something inside and out help you use it, and more importantly helps you invent new solutions, but I realize mine may be a minority opinion.

Then again, this is HACKER news and what I've described is pretty damn close to the core hacker ethic.

The two languages I call myself an expert at are Python and Javascript, I can say confidently that I wouldn't call myself an expert at the former without a damn good understanding of the entire language, data model, standard lib, and standard CPython implemention, nor the other without at least a decent grasp of the ECMA-262 spec, the knowledge of which comes into play more often than one who hasn't read it might guess.

Your chess analogy doesn't really make any sense, sorry. A better one is to understand how a car is built before you drive it. I think that might just make for better drivers.

Hopefully, the OP and those reading the discussion take away that you shouldn't stop at proficiency. Strive to know your stuff down to the bits. Don't become complacent; as I've read elsewhere here, Feel the incline, and walk uphill.

Re: Job market for a 30+ person learning to code?

#59

Post by abc_lisper »

djtriptych wrote: post #58
abc_lisper wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't read the entire VM spec. This thinking of knowing something inside out helps you how to use it is bunk. You don't have to know the how the rules of chess came into being to play chess. Or you could go that way, and do it as the parent says, and end up like me, somewhat dazed and confused a decade later. Just because you invented radio does not mean the programming you put on it is the best. Realize that program…

I have to disagree strongly here. I do believe understanding something inside and out help you use it, and more importantly helps you invent new solutions, but I realize mine may be a minority opinion. Then again, this is HACKER news and what I've described is pretty damn close to the core hacker ethic. The two languages I call myself an expert at are Python and Javascript, I can say confidently that I wouldn't call…

> A better one is to understand how a car is built before you drive it.

Yep, I agree. That is a better analogy. If you know how to build a car, you will be an expert at building cars, not driving them. I mean, how many of the better racing drivers are builders themselves?

If you always have to think about the how, the expression and the art suffers. Always. Human brain does not think in abstract logic, no matter how much you convince yourselves otherwise(may be except for some). It is always better at thinking intuitively.

Now, if you disagree, I would encourage you to keep posting. I like to discuss this. Not just to challenge you, but would like to know about the mistakes in my thinking.

Re: Job market for a 30+ person learning to code?

#60

Post by nirvana »

aliguori wrote: post #39
nirvana wrote: post #32

I became a startup founder when I lost a position at a startup because they hired a younger (cheaper) person. I have 20 years of experience with several patents, etc. Literally we were expanding the team, I interviewed the person, he got the new position, then I was let go. Totally age discrimination, but I couldn't prove it, of course. Even 20 years ago, Microsoft, et. al. focused on hiring kids right out of college…

If a company thought someone could do your job for less money and let you go that is not discrimination. That's a healthy labor market. They may have, mistakenly, undervalued your experience but that's a bad leadership decision, not discrimination.

The person they hired couldn't do my job, and the company imploded pretty soon afterwards. They were simply choosing to hire inexperience cheaply rather than build a real business. I think this is a result of the fact that their primary product was stock they sold to investors.
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