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Learn to code, ignore AI, then use AI to code even better

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Re: Learn to code, ignore AI, then use AI to code even better

#121

Post by bluGill »

CharlieDigital wrote: post #92
intelVISA wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Problem is what kind of moat does that SaaS have? The flip side of 'we replaced our dev team with vibe coders look how fast we print shitware' is now shitware value falls close to 0, as anyone can make it. Though you suggest he's non-technical... "writing down exactly what he wants" is just coding!

> "writing down exactly what he wants" is just coding! That would make good project managers and business analysts "coders" and they are not coders. It is only in this age with LLMs does that line between functional requirements and code become blurred. He doesn't know how to write code well; he knows how to write requirements and instructions well from managing offshore teams. In practice, his instructions are detai…

I assume by functional domain you mean how the program functions.

Most of us here will assume functional refers to functional programming which is very much in the technical domain.

Re: Learn to code, ignore AI, then use AI to code even better

#122

Post by CharlieDigital »

bluGill wrote: post #121
CharlieDigital wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "writing down exactly what he wants" is just coding! That would make good project managers and business analysts "coders" and they are not coders. It is only in this age with LLMs does that line between functional requirements and code become blurred. He doesn't know how to write code well; he knows how to write requirements and instructions well from managing offshore teams. In practice, his instructions are detai…

I assume by functional domain you mean how the program functions. Most of us here will assume functional refers to functional programming which is very much in the technical domain.

"Functional domain" meaning "functional requirements".

Re: Learn to code, ignore AI, then use AI to code even better

#123

Post by NeutralCrane »

nkrisc wrote: post #6

If you spend time on places that attract newbie programmers (some subreddits focused on game dev or game engines, for example) you’ll see the outcome of “I no longer think you should learn to code.” And it’s not pretty. Many, many posts of people looking for help fixing AI-generated code because the AI got it wrong and they have no idea what the code even does. Much of the time the problem is simply an invented metho…

> Now of course people learning the traditional way have these same problems, but they’re debugging code they wrote, not gobbledygook from an AI.

I’m not sure this is true. Prior to AI you saw a lot of the same behavior, but it was with code copied and pasted from stack overflow, or tutorials, or what have you.

I don’t think AI has changed much in terms of behavior. There has always been a subset of people who have just looked for getting something that “worked” without understanding why, whether that’s from an AI code assistant, or an online forum, or their fellow teammates, and others who want to understand why something works. AI has perhaps made this more apparent, but it’s always been a thing.

Re: Learn to code, ignore AI, then use AI to code even better

#124

Post by wiether »

Frieren wrote: post #23
isolli wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But the usual way of learning the craft is broken. Experienced developers will now work with AI instead of hiring junior developers. Some exceptional individuals might still learn on their own, but the path from junior to senior, learning by doing, could vanish. That's my worry.

> Some exceptional individuals might still learn on their own And people with money/means. Children of software engineers may be able to learn the profession easier than others. The same goes for children with affluent parents that can pay for many years of education. It seems a retreat back to a more medieval economy that excludes large parts of society.

The free content to learn how to code is still available on the Internet and it won't go away.

SE is one of the few professions that one can _learn_ for free, by themselves.

It could take longer than going into a fancy university, and it won't open corporate doors as easily, but basically anyone with a computer and an Internet connection can learn SE.

Re: Learn to code, ignore AI, then use AI to code even better

#125

Post by MonkeyClub »

shinycode wrote: post #16
marjann wrote: post #9

The rise of tools like Cursor reminds me of the Industrial Revolution in France. When machines first appeared in factories, unskilled workers who didn’t understand how they operated often got injured - sometimes quite literally losing fingers. But for skilled craftsmen, these machines became force multipliers, dramatically increasing productivity and improving overall living standards. The same applies to software de…

Well it’s a good point that proves at least two things. First in the industrial world machine have not yet replaced man after decades. Still a force multiplier. The second point is the one who control « what » produces value wins it all. In France we had amazing industries and some were deported offshore. Maybe some genius thought that only the brain mattered. Now countries have to rely on other countries to build or…

> machine have not yet replaced man after decades

When I look at fields like car manufacturing, which is mostly robotic, it seems that nowadays humans are force multipliers for machines rather than the other way around.

Re: Learn to code, ignore AI, then use AI to code even better

#126

Post by NeutralCrane »

dingnuts wrote: post #98
theshrike79 wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is why platforms(?) like Claude Code, Cursor and Windsurf are essential. Claude Code forces you to create a CLAUDE.md to direct how it works, with Cursor you can (and should) write Cursor Rules. The difference with a good spec + AI vs just vibe coding from scratch is like night and day.

why would I pay for the advanced features when I haven't been impressed with the free features? in fact Claude 3.5, which is what is available, is a nearly worthless product, with value comparable to a free search engine, and not even a very good one. It is usually incorrect and frequently in subtle ways that will cost me a lot of time. pro AI people sound like someone with an expensive addiction trying to justify it…

Like many tools, there is some user skill required. Certainly there are situations where AI assistants won’t help much, but if every single attempt you’ve made to use an AI coding assistant has been “useless”, you are either working in a very niche area or, perhaps more likely, it is user error on your own part.

There are plenty of people who are way too high on the current abilities of AI, but I find that the “AI is useless crowd” to be equally ridiculous.

It reminds me of early in my career working in statistics where the company I joined out of grad school was justifiably looking to move out of SAS and start working in R and Python. Many were enthusiastic about the change and quickly saw the benefit, but there were some who were too entrenched in their previous way of working, and insisted that there was no benefit to changing, they could do anything required in SAS, and stubbornly refused to entertain the idea that there was a benefit to be gained by learning a new skill.

You needn’t become an AI cultist. But with the number of people who are getting at least some benefit to using AI coding assistants, if you are finding it to be worthless in your personal experience, it may be worth stepping back and considering if there is something wrong with how you are trying to utilize it.

Re: Learn to code, ignore AI, then use AI to code even better

#127

Post by nightfox1 »

morcus wrote: post #117
nightfox1 wrote: post #71

This resonates a lot with what I’ve seen outside of code too. I’ve been building an AI chess coach and noticed the same pattern: people plug their games into Stockfish, see a list of best moves, and walk away thinking they’ve “analyzed” the game. But real understanding — like in programming — only comes from engaging with why things went wrong. That’s what I’m trying to fix. Instead of just showing lines, my AI coach…

Seems like an interesting idea - is it only tactics in scope or has does the AI also do well at analyzing strategic ideas? Some other thoughts: Isn't the first example just wrong? The AI says "after dxe3 Rxd8 Rxd8, white wins the exchange, gaining a Rook for a Bishop" but unless I am mistaken actually it's a Queen for a Rook and Bishop? Also, it seems the visual highlight AI referenced is not working? Talks about Rad…

It will do both tactics and strategy. Also working on incorporating positional concepts.

Yes you are right. It is still in demo phase, it still does make mistakes. I am refining the model and inputs, so definitely a work in progress :)

Regarding the circle highlighting, the agent is deciding / reasoning which square to highlight. So it is non-determinsitic, so it is sometimes right / wrong.

It will definitely get better as the models improve

Re: Learn to code, ignore AI, then use AI to code even better

#128

Post by NeutralCrane »

dansmyers wrote: post #65

I'm a professor at a small college. I teach intro programming most semesters and we're now moving to using tools like Cursor with no restrictions in upper-level courses. "How do students learn to code nowadays?" - I think about this pretty much all the time. In my intro class, the two main goals are to learn about structured programming (using loops, functions, etc.) and build a mental model of how programs execute.…

This is by far the most interesting insight in this thread

Re: Learn to code, ignore AI, then use AI to code even better

#129

Post by ghaff »

dansmyers wrote: post #65

I'm a professor at a small college. I teach intro programming most semesters and we're now moving to using tools like Cursor with no restrictions in upper-level courses. "How do students learn to code nowadays?" - I think about this pretty much all the time. In my intro class, the two main goals are to learn about structured programming (using loops, functions, etc.) and build a mental model of how programs execute.…

I observe the course catalog at one not small college now has options for a lot of majors—many of which weren’t terribly computer-heavy historically.

Re: Learn to code, ignore AI, then use AI to code even better

#130

Post by daerogami »

DeathArrow wrote: post #69

To each, their own. To deeply understand an area you have to learn it from bottom up. I learned BASIC as a small kid, using a clone of ZX Spectrum. I was aware that the memory was limited and that I can poke and peek a memory address to set or retrieve the info. I learned Pascal and then rapidly went to C and C++. I learned about pointers and how the memory is layed out and what are system calls. I learned about CPUs…

To add to this, if someone depends on AI (the top-layer in your example) and doesn't learn the the 'how's and the 'why's of programming, they or their organization will be completely beholden and dependent on the organizations running those AI tools. Not a great position to be in.
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