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Learn to code, ignore AI, then use AI to code even better

kyrylo.org

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Re: Learn to code, ignore AI, then use AI to code even better

#61
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Rule number 1 and the only rule: You need to be a subject matter expert. Strong disagree. I've been coding for 25+years but never on the front-end side. I couldn't write JS w/ pen & paper with a gun against my head. But I know what to ask and how to make sure a react component does what I want it to do, with these tools.

Or, in other words, you are a subject matter expert and are agreeing with the person you’re responding to. Quote the full argument (emphasis added): > Rule number 1 and the only rule: You need to be a subject matter expert. Be it program logic or be it programming language. You are a subject matter in program logic, just not programming language. You are supporting their point, not disagreeing.

I see where you're coming from. But later in the message they go > and if you do not understand the reason for the code and the programming language, you will take so much more time than if you did not even use the AI.

I guess that's the part I disagree on. The programming language is largely irrelevant now is what I'm seeing. And especially the "time to first result" is orders of magnitude smaller when using AI assistants than having to rtfm/google/so every little problem I encounter in an unfamiliar language.

And I am in no way stating that my code will match an expert in that field, of course.

Re: Learn to code, ignore AI, then use AI to code even better

#62
post #6

If you spend time on places that attract newbie programmers (some subreddits focused on game dev or game engines, for example) you’ll see the outcome of “I no longer think you should learn to code.” And it’s not pretty. Many, many posts of people looking for help fixing AI-generated code because the AI got it wrong and they have no idea what the code even does. Much of the time the problem is simply an invented metho…

It was always thus, and will continue to be.

The scale may change, but that is likely just because more people code. You couldn't do X but now you almost can!

> Now of course people learning the traditional way have these same problems, but they’re debugging code they wrote,

Really? They've not copied and pasted something from SO? They're that early in their coding journey?

> It’s almost a little sad. If they just take the time to actually learn what they’re doing they’ll be able to accomplish so much more.

Leading a horse to water, etc. but llms are excellent at being a patient teacher of basic coding.

Frankly they can be excellent at lots of things people keep saying they're bad at but some seem to refuse to learn how to use them as a tool. It reminds me of watching people be unable to use Google in the past - how to not just ask a question but search for information.

Re: Learn to code, ignore AI, then use AI to code even better

#63
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have played around wit AI code from time to time. I do not code routinely but I have pet personal projects that allow me to do some code and this is where I experimented. Rule number 1 and the only rule: You need to be a subject matter expert. Be it program logic or be it programming language. AI is only a helper, it will go wrong, frequently, and if you do not understand the reason for the code and the programming…

I like to think of AI as a force (or skill) multiplier . If you’re low skill, it doesn’t do much. The higher your skill, the more useful it is.

That hasn't been my experience, nor that of others using the AI.

It's a force constant, rather than a multiplier. If you're low skilled, asking it to do a low skilled task, it works fine. If you're high skilled, and asked it to do the low skilled task, you saved a tiny bit of time (less than that of the low skilled person).

But it cannot do a high skilled task (at least, not right now). It can pretend, which can lead the low skilled person astray (but not the high skilled person).

Therefore, all AI does is raise the floor of what is achievable by the laymen, rather than multiply the productivity of a high skilled programmer.

Re: Learn to code, ignore AI, then use AI to code even better

#64
post #2

This is my reaction to the recent tweet by the Replit CEO, where he said that learning to code will be a waste of time.

Replit is a bit strange phenomena, they clearly are creating a huge buzz online, but I mingle a lot with university students and academics and I hardly ever heard anyone mentioning using, even sometimes when I explicitly ask them they don't seem to have heard of it?

Generally curious if it is gaining traction and somehow I haven't bumped into others who use it.

Re: Learn to code, ignore AI, then use AI to code even better

#65
I'm a professor at a small college. I teach intro programming most semesters and we're now moving to using tools like Cursor with no restrictions in upper-level courses.

"How do students learn to code nowadays?" - I think about this pretty much all the time.

In my intro class, the two main goals are to learn about structured programming (using loops, functions, etc.) and build a mental model of how programs execute. Students should be able to look at a piece of code and reason through what it does. I've moved most of the traditional homework problems into class and lab time, so I can observe the students coding without using AI. The out-of-class projects are now bigger and more creative and include specific steps to teach students how to use AI collaboratively.

My upper-level students are now doing more ambitious and challenging projects. What we've seen is that AI moves the difficulty of programming away from remembering details of languages or frameworks, but rewards having a careful, structured development process:

- Thinking hard and chatting about the problem and the changes you need to implement before doing anything

- Keeping components encapsulated and thinking about interfaces

- Controlling the scope of your changes; current AIs work best at the function or class level

- Testing and validation

- Good manual debugging skills; you can't rely on AI to fix everything for you

- General system knowledge: networking, OS, data formats, databases

One of my key theories is that AI might lower the value of "computer science" as a standalone major, but will lead to a lot more coding across fields that currently don't use it. The intersection of "not a traditional engineer" and "can work with AI to solve problems with code" is going to be an emerging skill set that will change a lot of disciplines.

Re: Learn to code, ignore AI, then use AI to code even better

#66
post #9

The rise of tools like Cursor reminds me of the Industrial Revolution in France. When machines first appeared in factories, unskilled workers who didn’t understand how they operated often got injured - sometimes quite literally losing fingers. But for skilled craftsmen, these machines became force multipliers, dramatically increasing productivity and improving overall living standards. The same applies to software de…

> But for skilled craftsmen, these machines became force multipliers, dramatically increasing productivity

Until they eventually and inevitably got injured themselves. Factories were just dangerous (and still are in many many places around the world).

Re: Learn to code, ignore AI, then use AI to code even better

#67

Probably the opposite is true: the more you know how to code, the less productive you'll be with AI. This has been my observation watching a non-technical friend build a SaaS as a one-man team in 4 months and is generating $#,000 in revenue within 2 months. The way he uses AI is just completely different from how the technical folks I know use AI because he doesn't think about the code at all. The way he instructs th…

Problem is what kind of moat does that SaaS have? The flip side of 'we replaced our dev team with vibe coders look how fast we print shitware' is now shitware value falls close to 0, as anyone can make it.

Though you suggest he's non-technical... "writing down exactly what he wants" is just coding!

Re: Learn to code, ignore AI, then use AI to code even better

#69
To each, their own. To deeply understand an area you have to learn it from bottom up.

I learned BASIC as a small kid, using a clone of ZX Spectrum. I was aware that the memory was limited and that I can poke and peek a memory address to set or retrieve the info.

I learned Pascal and then rapidly went to C and C++. I learned about pointers and how the memory is layed out and what are system calls.

I learned about CPUs and I learned some X86 assembly.

Ar the university I learned about digital circuits and how to assemble one using logical gates. Of course I learned much more, data structures, algorithms, operating systems, distributed systems, parallel and concurrent programming, formal languages and automata theory, cryptography, web, lots of stuff.

I learned other lots of stuff by myself.

I've built desktop apps, websites, software for microcontrollers, games, web applications and now I am working on microservices based apps running in cloud.

I was a junior developer, graduated somehow to senior. I worked as a software architect and now I am a team leader.

These days I work almost exclusively with C#, but I am also interested in other languages if I have some spare time to evaluate them.

What I want to say is this: is not enough to learn the highest level of technology of today. Today that is AI, few years ago it was JS frameworks, more years ago it was Java, .NET, Python.

To be good at what you do you always have to learn all layers under the current top layer. Learn from bottom up. You don't have to be good at every technical detail, but you have to understand at least how the things work.

Re: Learn to code, ignore AI, then use AI to code even better

#70
That advice was true already a decade ago, but replace AI with StackOverflow. I encountered many junior devs (mostly money-driven, not out of passion for software development) that were completely fine just copy-pasting code out of Stackoverflow without getting a deeper understanding or at least trying to understand what their copied code does. Same is true for AI. Both are great tools, but to become truly a master of your craft you should always thrive to become the person that would have answered the SO question - or wrote the article that the AI learned from.
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