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The Website Hacker News Is Afraid to Discuss

daringfireball.net

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Re: The Website Hacker News Is Afraid to Discuss

#241

Post by graeme »

js2 wrote: post #207
alsetmusic wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But overall the algorithm has kept HN an interesting place. Any good moderation policy has side effects and tradeoffs. I don’t think so. From his follow-up: > My thesis is that the above might once have been an accurate summary of how Hacker News functions, but hasn’t been for years, and that there now exists a cabal of moderator/admins with their thumbs on the scale, and their personal predilections are the primar…

This is paranoid conspiracy-theory stuff. Or it's bait. It's also not falsifiable. Dang can disclaim it but Gruber's next step would just be to write "of course dang would say that." Frankly, I find this submission and Gruber's followup insufferable and it makes me want to read him less. I say that as a regular reader of his blog who's purchased several of his t-shirts over the years. But really, these posts alone ma…

I don't think it is. The moderation guidelines explicitly say there can be site weightings. I think it's likely there is a negative site weighting on Daring Fireball and multiple other sites.

My guess would be it was algorithmically applied based on past tendency for them to gather early flags or flamewar comments, rather than personal animus. Why there would be a site weight rank is not falsifiable except by the mod team.

But whether there is one seems much clearer. Daring Fireball submissions perform very poorly, the notable one that should have been #1 by any measure was "Something is Rotten in the State of Cupertino".

Might be the most notable Apple article of the decade. That it wasn't number one suggests negative site weight. Which, I'll repeat, is explicitly within the public guidelines for how the site is run. Not a paranoid conspiracy. I doubt the mods would comment on specific site weights as that would open a whole can of worms. Which is frustrating for sites, but I can't think of any social media algo that's public.

Re: The Website Hacker News Is Afraid to Discuss

#242

Post by philipkd »

ryandrake wrote: post #132
jgruber wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My thesis is that HN would like you to think their moderation is highly transparent, and it's very clear that the core HN audience believes that to be true, but that in fact it is not transparent at all. If the problem is with my writing "being not that interesting or useful and also contentious", how then do you explain Daring Fireball ranking #3 here from 2007-2021 but dropping to #78 from 2021-2025. Do you think m…

I think the overall conclusion from this investigation must be: We'll never know because at the end of the day it's HN's site, and they are the only ones who know how moderation works. They have the logs and (presumably) the materialized dashboards showing what's going on, and we only get a peek at it when the lead moderator (dang) pulls back the curtain a little. He is very friendly, and actually very, very prompt a…

Maybe a dumb question, but how can you brigade against on Hacker News if there is no downvote of submissions?

Re: The Website Hacker News Is Afraid to Discuss

#243

Post by philipkd »

jgruber wrote: post #130
whamlastxmas wrote: post #100

Moderation on HN is probably the most transparent you’ll find anywhere aside from Wikipedia, and HN is better than WP in terms of unbiased moderation. Dang and team have a stellar reputation and the idea that they’re covertly blacklisitng a personal blog is really silly. OP’s submissions are likely not popular because of a mixture of them being not that interesting or useful and also contentious. Contentious submissi…

My thesis is that HN would like you to think their moderation is highly transparent, and it's very clear that the core HN audience believes that to be true, but that in fact it is not transparent at all. If the problem is with my writing "being not that interesting or useful and also contentious", how then do you explain Daring Fireball ranking #3 here from 2007-2021 but dropping to #78 from 2021-2025. Do you think m…

I'm a fan of both HN and DF. If I assume my worldview is accurate, that both are above-board, then the only explanation I have left is flamewar detection. Your links get too many comments—plus some flags sprinkled in there—too fast relative to upvotes. So, your posts get too much engagement.

There is a twisted logic to that algo, esp. for a "News For Nerds. Stuff That Matters"-flavored attitude, and esp. for a site that's trying to be as efficiently managed as possible.

Plus, Scott Alexander noted recently a decline in Substack due to deboosting on X, but also that just too many people are now Substacking, many of whom are good, and a lot who are just clones. And on the Dithering about "Rotten", you and Ben both concur that it feels like a while since either of you went viral. So as soon as a solo blogger blows up, the system quickly co-opts that blend of content into other media channels. i.e., Indie generally doesn't last.

I did a YoY look at your rankings:

2007: #50

2008: #20

2009: #3

2010: #1

2011: #2

2012: #7

2013: #34

2014: #17

2015: #568

2016: #184

2017: #8

2018: #69

2019: #86

2020: #8

2021: #20

2022: #406

2023: #98

2024: #133

2025: #53

(10/9/20XX – 10/09/20XX)

https://refactoringenglish.com/tools/hn-popularity/?start=20...

Something weird definitely happened in 2015/2016, for sure (maybe the start of the anti-engagement algo). But your blog was also crazy popular between the iPhone's release and Steve Jobs' death. That was probably the most dynamic time in Apple's history (post-Sculley), with plenty of controversy worthy of exacting critique (Antennagate, etc.)

Re: The Website Hacker News Is Afraid to Discuss

#244

Post by JKCalhoun »

pb7 wrote: post #195
JKCalhoun wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would guess a change in HN audience (anyone want to throw in COVID-19?) and a decline in Apple's popularity in general.

[flagged]

You're right — I mean I shouldn't't have used the word 'popularity'. I'd say their positive image though has lost a good deal of its shine since their peak.

Re: The Website Hacker News Is Afraid to Discuss

#245

Post by mkerrigan »

I find the whole thing funny. There's not so much secret sauce going on here as much as you might think. I've been reading Daring Fireball for a long time but I think anytime you make this suggestion the automatic response is to think there is some shady cabal behind the scenes and that's just conspiracy theory stuff. Anytime someone makes a meta post questioning how HN ranks articles it almost always gets flagged because it's not really on topic.

Re: The Website Hacker News Is Afraid to Discuss

#246

Post by mproud »

llm_nerd wrote: post #111
graeme wrote: post #16

It's certainly possible there's a backend flag on the site. But from the comments I see on Reddit, I suspect there may be a simpler explanation: a lot of people for some reason really dislike John Gruber and view him as someone who slavishly praises Apple. I'm a big John Gruber fan, and I don't think this is true in the slightest. I think he thinks carefully, forms his own opinions, and is very willing to intensely c…

>I'm a big John Gruber fan Which is the problem and why I would guess that there is an automatic downranking to the domain, and why many knee-jerk flag entries from the site. Not that you specifically are a fan, but that a big enough minority of HN users would describe themselves as such and would submit and upvote entries from the site. The bulk of DF entries could best be described as opinion/my-take type content.…

How is this different from pg fans? Are pg’s posts flagged?

Re: The Website Hacker News Is Afraid to Discuss

#247

Post by proline »

gcp123 wrote: post #57

As someone who's been reading Daring Fireball since 2004 and considers themselves an Apple fan, I think the algorithm is working exactly as intended if it's designed to limit intellectually dishonest content. Gruber has built a career on a predictable pattern: vociferously defend Apple's every decision (even contradicting his own previous positions when Apple changes course), construct elaborate post-rationalizations…

Revisiting "incorrect predictions" is a great way to learn about the error's in one's thinking and grow as a person. If your way of dealing with incorrect predictions is to pretend they never happened, then that learning can't happen. He doesn't have "meticulous, years-long grudges" against anyone who has made a bad prediction and learned from it. He does do it to people who refuse to admit they've ever made a mistake (eg the Bloomberg guy) or people who purposely make mistakes to pump and dump Apple's stock (Trip Chowdhry). To me that's fair game.

Re: The Website Hacker News Is Afraid to Discuss

#248

Post by js2 »

graeme wrote: post #241
js2 wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is paranoid conspiracy-theory stuff. Or it's bait. It's also not falsifiable. Dang can disclaim it but Gruber's next step would just be to write "of course dang would say that." Frankly, I find this submission and Gruber's followup insufferable and it makes me want to read him less. I say that as a regular reader of his blog who's purchased several of his t-shirts over the years. But really, these posts alone ma…

I don't think it is. The moderation guidelines explicitly say there can be site weightings. I think it's likely there is a negative site weighting on Daring Fireball and multiple other sites. My guess would be it was algorithmically applied based on past tendency for them to gather early flags or flamewar comments, rather than personal animus. Why there would be a site weight rank is not falsifiable except by the mod…

The paranoid part: "there now exists a cabal of moderator/admins with their thumbs on the scale, and their personal predilections are the primary steering force."

What exactly does Gruber think this cabal has against him? He's not that important. The stuff he writes in the grand scheme of things isn't all that interesting. It's a niche within a niche.

There's not really even all that much to comment on about his posts, frankly. They are opinion pieces. Comments on opinions pieces usually take the form of flame wars or are simply too uninteresting to have much to say about. Same for the other bloggers he mentioned who think they are also being downweighted.

I don't agree his "something rotten" post was worthy of #1. After I read it (independently of HN), I sorta nodded along but never thought to submit it here.

There's only 28 comments on it, none very interesting;

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43348891

It only got 176 upvotes. That said, it's clearly lower than other submissions from that day, ending in the 88th position. I can't find any lower ranked submission with even close to that score:

https://news.ycombinator.com/front?day=2025-03-13&p=3

Also, geez, people sure do spam his posts to this site:

https://news.ycombinator.com/from?site=daringfireball.net

So maybe it does get down weighted due to all the repeated submissions.

Re: The Website Hacker News Is Afraid to Discuss

#249

Post by philistine »

js2 wrote: post #207
alsetmusic wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But overall the algorithm has kept HN an interesting place. Any good moderation policy has side effects and tradeoffs. I don’t think so. From his follow-up: > My thesis is that the above might once have been an accurate summary of how Hacker News functions, but hasn’t been for years, and that there now exists a cabal of moderator/admins with their thumbs on the scale, and their personal predilections are the primar…

This is paranoid conspiracy-theory stuff. Or it's bait. It's also not falsifiable. Dang can disclaim it but Gruber's next step would just be to write "of course dang would say that." Frankly, I find this submission and Gruber's followup insufferable and it makes me want to read him less. I say that as a regular reader of his blog who's purchased several of his t-shirts over the years. But really, these posts alone ma…

Gruber's There is something rotten in the State of Cupertino is one of the most excoriating Apple take in years, in large part because it comes from Gruber. Why was this not front page !?

Re: The Website Hacker News Is Afraid to Discuss

#250

Post by theshrike79 »

philipkd wrote: post #242
ryandrake wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the overall conclusion from this investigation must be: We'll never know because at the end of the day it's HN's site, and they are the only ones who know how moderation works. They have the logs and (presumably) the materialized dashboards showing what's going on, and we only get a peek at it when the lead moderator (dang) pulls back the curtain a little. He is very friendly, and actually very, very prompt a…

Maybe a dumb question, but how can you brigade against on Hacker News if there is no downvote of submissions?

When you get enough karma, you can "flag" submissions. If enough people flag a submission, it gets buried and won't show up on the front page anymore.
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