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The Website Hacker News Is Afraid to Discuss

daringfireball.net

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Re: The Website Hacker News Is Afraid to Discuss

#171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What exactly do you think my "tactics" were/are? I've only ever submitted one article of my own to Hacker News. This one.

the content in the blog is yours, no? So people posting things that would cause flame wars from your domain is still your responsibility? At some point people stop engaging to disagree and start to flag. Your karma doesn't reflect the score expected from the blogger behind the top #3 website of HN. This should tell us something. Supporting a monopoly like Apple will sure attract a lot of detractors in a forum named "…

> Your karma doesn't reflect the score expected from the blogger behind the top #3 website of HN. This should tell us something.

Karma's a reflection of how much someone uses HN. Glancing at his account, it looks like he has never submitted anything before this article, and almost never comments. That account having low karma doesn't really tell us anything about him, beyond that he's not a HN regular.

Re: The Website Hacker News Is Afraid to Discuss

#172
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unlikely. “Rotten in Cupertino” was a bombshell and this forum should have been where the most insightful discussion took place. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43348891

a "bombshell" for the bubble of Apple-superfans, shocked that their high priest is criticizing Apple, maybe. For the rest of the world?

[flagged]

Re: The Website Hacker News Is Afraid to Discuss

#173
post #116
post #54

It’s not just Gruber. As both a medium-high HN karma person and a Gruber fan I can say there is a definite reduction in the overall quality of discourse around Apple news versus general topics on HN. Much more knee jerk reactions. I theorize this is due to the overall startup versus incumbents focus as well as the hacker ethos of being opposed to more buttoned up closed systems meant for the general public. Like for…

> I can say there is a definite reduction in the overall quality of discourse around Apple news versus general topics on HN. Much more knee jerk reactions. "Knee jerk reactions" presumes that Apple today behaves no differently than it did before when discussions "felt" more civil. That would be pretty far from the truth. Old Apple didn't piss off its developer community for the sake of protecting its walled garden, i…

You know this comment made me realize something. Apple and Meta are basically in an escalating Cold War. Apple recently singled out Meta as the number one requester of privacy-sensitive APIs and beneficiary of EU-mandated broader access for 3rd parties. Meta responded by calling Apple “anticompetitive“ and lobbying for government intervention.[1]

So let’s consider this comment with that in mind:

* Meta is pissed off it doesn’t have more user data access inside Apple’s walled garden

* Meta makes more affordable VR glasses

* Meta released a high quality, developer friendly AI model

In other words, these are all Meta-friendly points.

I’m old enough to remember the Mac vs PC days when people would get utterly tribal on the internet about it. Maybe that’s where HN is at now. You can see why a startup focused third party developer community might lean towards busting open walled gardens.

[1] https://apnews.com/article/apple-meta-european-union-digital...

Re: The Website Hacker News Is Afraid to Discuss

#174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> like Apple goes around living in these folks head rent free Not rent-free. 30% in the App Store. And 100% in the PWA they don't let me ask users to install.

Are you saying these things make you angry at Apple? I.e., I'm still having trouble understanding, e.g., why not just make software for the many other platforms that are more aligned with your values? E.g., if I made games, I'd probably ship on Steam and not even try to ship on Nintendo, but I wouldn't hate Nintendo for that, I'd just target platforms that I'm more aligned with. I'm just having a hard time picturing…

> I'm still having trouble understanding, e.g., why not just make software for the many other platforms that are more aligned with your values?

I want to make software to users of smartphones, not to Apple users. There is nothing related to values. Gatekeeping the whole apps ecosystem for their own profit isn't a value anybody should share besides the shareholders.

Re: The Website Hacker News Is Afraid to Discuss

#175
post #39

For posterity, here's a spreadsheet of all Daring Fireball submissions to HN, sorted chronologically: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1A7ljmWbHtFsB4VRJ1Q0d... From first glance there's still some decent traffic on Daring Fireball submissions, even inside the times Gruber asserts deadweighting.

How then do you explain DF being #3 from 2007-2021 and #72 from 2021-2025? It’s clearly not blacklisted, but clearly is shitlisted, no?

For anecdotal feedback I'm taking myself as an example, although I don't flag, I just don't upvote anymore.

(At the same time I think there is a flag problem on HN. I'd recommend /active for a better view into HN discussions.)

Historically I should be your target group, I'm a Mac user since it was uncool (and tribal), I think I have DF in my subscriptions since NetNewsWire 1. But I'm just not interested anymore, I fell off as a regular reader.

Partly it is topical: I'm rather disinterested in inside baseball or opinions on journalism on Apple. "Claim Chowder" as a concept should have staid in the 2000s, I think. My Apple interests are more in the technical details or in the opinions of the wider Indie Devsphere or how people use their technology. Hence Michael Tsai's blog is my favourite Apple blog.

And where you touch an Apple business aspect I'm often baffled by your reasoning. That your Apple-vs-EU-opinions are rather outlier opinions I don’t need to recap, although I found the tone of your language sometimes going in an off putting weird direction, almost as if those Europeans should not allowed to give themselves laws.

But even when I share the complaint of a critical article of yours there is a fundamental disconnect. Taking your recent "Rotten" post: You closed the article with the hope of someone berating the lower ranks of Apple like Jobs did with MobileMe. I found that sociopathic by Jobs then and I find the suggestion absurd today. Telling the slaves to row harder has never motivated someone, I think.

And even if, the software problem at Apple is managerial. Senior management invented the annual releases, probably for the Christmas season. Senior management started to announce features in advance, pushing them back more and more in the release year. Senior management releases features before they are ready. In my opinions the directly responsible individuals are Federighi and Dye, as good as that hair may be. And for all of it: Cook himself.

Plus: Apple's position has fundamentally changed. Instead of an upstart, it is a trillion-dollar-behemoth. That changes how we look at the company. And the company has deeply changed, like all tech company they become more vertical and insular in their services (“Feudal” is a wrong metaphor, historically speaking, but it goes to an emotional truth). Why should we root for them anymore?

Recently I tried helping someone to get a file from a PC to their iPhone. The best options were either weird file sharing services or an USB stick like a barbarian. I blame Apple. I remember a time when computers could talk to each other, based on shared, open technical standards. Of course I blame Apple.

Re: The Website Hacker News Is Afraid to Discuss

#176
post #71

Why is this article flagged? Hacker News and Daring Fireball have so much in common: 1. Both long-running sites 2. Both serve a curious and tech savvy audience 3. Both run zero graphics 4. Both appreciate / provide long-form journalism They should be fine bedfellows. What's going on?

[deleted]

Re: The Website Hacker News Is Afraid to Discuss

#177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you saying these things make you angry at Apple? I.e., I'm still having trouble understanding, e.g., why not just make software for the many other platforms that are more aligned with your values? E.g., if I made games, I'd probably ship on Steam and not even try to ship on Nintendo, but I wouldn't hate Nintendo for that, I'd just target platforms that I'm more aligned with. I'm just having a hard time picturing…

> I'm still having trouble understanding, e.g., why not just make software for the many other platforms that are more aligned with your values? I want to make software to users of smartphones, not to Apple users. There is nothing related to values. Gatekeeping the whole apps ecosystem for their own profit isn't a value anybody should share besides the shareholders.

What's the most sympathetic way to state your position? E.g., I'm struggling with "I'm angry because I can't make money off of iPhone users the way I want to" that just doesn't sound sympathetic to me? Does it to you? (This may just be a conflict of values again, i.e., it sounds entitled to me to want to have equal access to sell your products to all smartphone users, regardless of their choices, that sounds super invasive to me in fact.)

Also be curious what you think of console makers like Nintendo who have a similar approach regarding revenue cuts and access as Apple? Specifically why is there so much hate at Apple using this model but not Nintendo?

Re: The Website Hacker News Is Afraid to Discuss

#178
post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of the theories I read somewhere is that there may be a threshold number of user-flags before the title gets tagged as [flagged], but flagging that happens fewer than that threshold still serves to down-weight the article. So there could be a lot of user-flags burying the article before it shows up as [flagged].

It must work that way. When I flag articles and they don't immediately show as `[flagged]`. I would guess the number of flags is weighted by upvotes, maybe (but less likely) by the karma of the person flagging the article. The software must track who flags articles since you can lose flagging privilege if you do it frivolously: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12173809 As far as I know, once an article is flagged…

I think from the way stuff is getting flagged & the comments, it's really a change in the user base becoming slowly less techo-anarchist/libertarian and more rightwing/authoritarian curious.

Something really in the water the last few years in tech circles. Or maybe just disgruntled as the stock compensation infinite money printer has ended.

Re: The Website Hacker News Is Afraid to Discuss

#179
I used to read DF semi regularly, like many others I didn’t always agree with the opinions but broadly I appreciated the thought and effort that went into them.

I stopped abruptly when posts and tweets became (to me) shockingly pro Israel and excused/justified/diminished the ongoing genocide in Palestine.

I understand the situation in Israel is complicated, and there is a strong relationship between the US and Israel, but as a citizen of a former occupied nation I can not stomach any attempts to rationalize the genocide happening in Palestine.

Re: The Website Hacker News Is Afraid to Discuss

#180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My bet is that there are actual people with enough karma automatically flagging every df post without considering the content for a second. Would be cool if @dang could check the flagging data in the articles since the massive drop in 2021 and see if there are any patterns (same people doing the flagging for every article).

I think the simplest and most likely explanation is that it’s dang himself who has a problem with Gruber.

yep. This is HN’s biggest flaw.
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