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I won't connect my dishwasher to your cloud

jeffgeerling.com

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Re: I won't connect my dishwasher to your cloud

#451

Post by mgraupner »

vladvasiliu wrote: post #367
dorfsmay wrote: post #131

Bosch! I ran into the same situation. I specifically told the salesperson I didn't want wifi, and they told me it's only if you want it to operate from your phone. I was done installing it and got rid of the packaging by the time I read that it needs to use their website for some functions. Beside the fact that I doubt the store would take it back after using it for a week or two and havi go no packaging, I had no ti…

This is likely a model number related issue. I have a Siemens, which, as I understand it, is a Bosch with different styling, since none of these brands actually make the appliances, they're just lending their brand to a separate manufacturer (which is still in Germany FWIW). It also has the "home connect" app. I have none of these issues. I have a dedicated button for delayed start on the front of the dishwasher. Ded…

Bosch and Siemens produce home appliances through B(osch)S(iemens)H Hausgeräte GmbH (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BSH_Hausgeräte). They are not lending their brand to another manufacturer.

Re: I won't connect my dishwasher to your cloud

#452

Post by jpalomaki »

schobi wrote: post #338
tzs wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had sort of the opposite situation. I needed a new washer and all the top rated ones according to Consumer Reports included WiFi. I asked at Home Depot if the one I was thinking of getting, an LG WM3400CW, required me to actually use the WiFi and they said no. I used it for a few weeks without ever even trying to set up WiFi and everything was fine. Then I found at that when you set up an LG washer for WiFi you can…

Wouldn't it be great if a universal standard existed for devices sending their diagnosis via audio? If there is a microcontroller and a beeper in there anyway, at only the extra cost of internal memory? Instead of a modem-type modulation and a speaker, make use of the bare minimum piezo beepers and send something that is universally understood? All of that without FCC, no extra hardware cost, no backchannel und thus…

Or flashing led and use mobile phone camera to scan it.

Back in the days infrared connection was a thing. I remember connecting my Compaq iPAQ PDA to Nokia phone.

Wonder if the modern cellphone cameras are fast enough to act as receiver and if this supported one way communication.

Re: I won't connect my dishwasher to your cloud

#453

Post by fransje26 »

geerlingguy wrote: post #78
klipklop wrote: post #56

I feel Jeff should have bit the bullet and just returned it. I know it's a waste of time, but these products have to be rejected at retail. Retailers will eventually get tired of the extra support burden and demand manufacturers drop stuff like this. They should all get hit with the open box problem from the returns.

I'd love to take a stance like that, but the reality is I've already sunk about 6 hours total into the whole operation, and I have quite limited time for my home maintenance + improvement projects as it is (my bench currently has a new faucet set to fix the leaky bathroom faucet, as well as an exhaust fan to fix the broken one in our bathroom... and those are just the things that are currently broken , not the dozen…

Please have a look at this comment:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43469297

It's linking to a website with the following explanation:

  However, perhaps inline with the German attitudes towards privacy, the BSH "HomeConnect" appliances have a no-cloud mode built into their app without any hacks required to disconnect them from the internet. They do require a one-time connection to perform key exchange of a long-live authorization key, but from then on the appliances can be operated entirely disconnected from the network.

Re: I won't connect my dishwasher to your cloud

#454

Post by hyllos »

SirHumphrey wrote: post #398
nextos wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Miele has some home dishwashers that are not too different from their commercial models. Really spartan and silent. A knob and two buttons, or a couple of buttons and a led display. The price is also not too bad, around €750.

I have been gravitating towards Miele more and more in recent years. Yes, they are expensive but at least they tend to work a bit - something I can’t say anymore for previously reliable brands like Bosch.

We were searching for a long-lasting washing machine 2 years ago. We asked local electrician shops with their classic Miele sign. Not one but many were recommending us AGAINST Miele due to recent quality problems. One electrician went with us to the models he had in-store. They changed the door now from metal to plastic. While Miele is bragging about their internal tests “our machines are tested to hold up against usage for up to 20 years”, they offer you a meagre 2 years warranty (that is compulsory in Germany). Well, guys, if you brag about your reliability, why can’t you even offer a 3 (!) year warranty for no additional cost if your product cost up to twice the price of a BSH device. “Well, you can purchase warranty extension for additional cost.” FU. …and recently Miele has problems selling their stuff for quality problems and they try to compensate for that by cutting costs by moving production out from Germany.

There is a market for old Miele washing machines. If they get defect, it’s usually shock absorbers or other easily repairable parts. Once repaired they last long. Of course with the higher electricity & water consumption.

Dishwashers… My father in law had rust issue with their dish rack of their Miele dish washer. The replacement part cost > 50% of a new dish washer. So he went with a a new Miele dish washer. Result: The new dish washer uses less water to save water. How does it work with less water? Doubling the runtime. Doubling the runtime doubles the wear and tear of parts. Assuming still same quality parts, the dish washer’s life time is halved. He should have been better off with replacing the dish rack.

Re: I won't connect my dishwasher to your cloud

#455

Post by coldpie »

adamsrog wrote: post #347

I actually just purchased a Bosch 500 series two days ago to replace my piece of trash Samsung dishwasher that stopped working. Supposed to be delivered in a week. Was deciding between Bosch and Kitchenaid based on recommendations. This kind of crap in appliances is so annoying. I will cancel my order from Home Depot and get something else. Thank you for this very timely post.

If a home appliance is wifi enabled, just don't buy it. Full stop. This reduces your options, but at least you'll end up with a product that actually functions.

Re: I won't connect my dishwasher to your cloud

#456

Post by derbOac »

inferiorhuman wrote: post #258
Nursie wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is this just an american thing/model? I have a Bosch Series 6 dishwasher here in Australia. It has physical buttons for all the stuff he mentions - Machine Care (self-cleaning), HalfLoad, Eco, and Delay start. I did connect it to wifi which allows me to ... do the same stuff from their app. It's next to useless in my use pattern of "load the dishwasher, run the dishwasher". Literally all it adds is the ability to mor…

The previous generation of Bosch dishwashers in the US were WiFi free. The current generation went through a round of cost cutting and added WiFi bullshit to everything. No idea what the state is of their appliances sold in other markets. As far as I can tell Electrolux is the only manufacturer selling "dumb" laundry kit in the US these days… which is probably part of why everyone's favorite LG shills (Yale Appliance…

Miele sells dumb dishwashers in the US.

I recently bought a Bosch and regret it for some of the same reasons as this article. I probably should have got the Miele but CR ratings were slightly higher for Bosch, the repair rates in different places were similar, and the cost was slightly less for the Bosch.

I'm ok with networked appliances but think every function should be operable at the minimum level of networking required to implement that function.

So, a specific washing or drying program shouldn't require any networking, so should function without any networking. Checking the status of a cycle on you phone can be done locally through something like Bluetooth, so it should operate with that and no wifi. Remote monitoring requires internet of some sort, so that's fine.

What makes me furious is requiring a phone app to run something like a delicate or rinse-only cycle.

Re: I won't connect my dishwasher to your cloud

#457

Post by [deleted] »

fransje26 wrote: post #450
dorfsmay wrote: post #131

Bosch! I ran into the same situation. I specifically told the salesperson I didn't want wifi, and they told me it's only if you want it to operate from your phone. I was done installing it and got rid of the packaging by the time I read that it needs to use their website for some functions. Beside the fact that I doubt the store would take it back after using it for a week or two and havi go no packaging, I had no ti…

I will high-jack this top-rated comment to link to a comment further below. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43469297 This comment has a link to [0], explaining, in plain text: However, perhaps inline with the German attitudes towards privacy, the BSH "HomeConnect" appliances have a no-cloud mode built into their app without any hacks required to disconnect them from the internet. They do require a one-time conne…

[deleted]

Re: I won't connect my dishwasher to your cloud

#458

Post by coldpie »

budro wrote: post #233

I work on embedded appliance software at my job. A few comments: It's quite easy to find yourself having non-zero boot times for some unfortunate reasons. At least in my org, the software as a whole is RAM/ROM constrained rather than speed constrained. Even when you're this close to bare metal, devs tend to write over-abstracted code riddled with inefficiencies. And of course most people don't profile the application…

I'm sorry for shitting on your job, but it seems like the solution is to bring back the buttons we had in the 80s and 90s and drop all the software garbage? I don't want a UI, I want an On button.

Re: I won't connect my dishwasher to your cloud

#459

Post by liotier »

jpalomaki wrote: post #452
schobi wrote: post #338

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wouldn't it be great if a universal standard existed for devices sending their diagnosis via audio? If there is a microcontroller and a beeper in there anyway, at only the extra cost of internal memory? Instead of a modem-type modulation and a speaker, make use of the bare minimum piezo beepers and send something that is universally understood? All of that without FCC, no extra hardware cost, no backchannel und thus…

Or flashing led and use mobile phone camera to scan it. Back in the days infrared connection was a thing. I remember connecting my Compaq iPAQ PDA to Nokia phone. Wonder if the modern cellphone cameras are fast enough to act as receiver and if this supported one way communication.

> Or flashing led and use mobile phone camera to scan it

Miele uses flashing LED as some sort of serial communication.

Re: I won't connect my dishwasher to your cloud

#460

Post by sofixa »

Gibbon1 wrote: post #448
sofixa wrote: post #443

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because most people don't have anything on the LAN that can integrate with the appliance, and with just a phone app and the appliance, you're limited in computing power, background activity and storage (you can't store all usage data on the machine itself, and you can't rely on the phone always being on the same wifi to collect the data and store it).

"you can't store all usage data on the machine itself" I can buy 128M flash for $2/10k

Flash that will survive the heat and humidity of a washing machine for a decade?
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