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I won't connect my dishwasher to your cloud

jeffgeerling.com

231–240 of 682 posts

Re: I won't connect my dishwasher to your cloud

#231

Bosch! I ran into the same situation. I specifically told the salesperson I didn't want wifi, and they told me it's only if you want it to operate from your phone. I was done installing it and got rid of the packaging by the time I read that it needs to use their website for some functions. Beside the fact that I doubt the store would take it back after using it for a week or two and havi go no packaging, I had no ti…

Is this just an american thing/model?

I have a Bosch Series 6 dishwasher here in Australia. It has physical buttons for all the stuff he mentions - Machine Care (self-cleaning), HalfLoad, Eco, and Delay start.

I did connect it to wifi which allows me to ... do the same stuff from their app. It's next to useless in my use pattern of "load the dishwasher, run the dishwasher". Literally all it adds is the ability to more easily set the machine to run later, which I don't care about.

I love Bosch stuff and will continue to buy it, certainly their series 6 and 8 stuff that's made in Germany - great quality and reliable IMHO.

Honestly it seems like there's just been a poor design decision here, to export the full set of controls to an app rather than on the machine, rather than some sort of fundamental sin. It certainly raises questions of what happens if/when they drop support, but another poster below mentions that the app works locally after initial cloud setup. Maybe just avoid this model...

Re: I won't connect my dishwasher to your cloud

#232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s cheap but it’s not available for 1+ months so you have to live without a dishwasher for a month. Idk about your family but mine would struggle for more than a week without one

If only there were some temporary method to get dishes clean without a dishwasher. Because it is temporary, it would be acceptable if the method required more human labor than the dishwasher method.

If only a person were to do some math and realize that spending four hours installing a dishwasher is less time than doing dishes by hand for a month. (and dealing with 50% odds of getting a terrible install by grumpy people who ding up stuff in your kitchen)

Re: I won't connect my dishwasher to your cloud

#233
I work on embedded appliance software at my job. A few comments:

It's quite easy to find yourself having non-zero boot times for some unfortunate reasons. At least in my org, the software as a whole is RAM/ROM constrained rather than speed constrained. Even when you're this close to bare metal, devs tend to write over-abstracted code riddled with inefficiencies. And of course most people don't profile the application at all. This is a symptom of the software being under-tested imo. I have personally written tooling to integration test the whole application for a few appliances, and for one appliance initializing the application 56 times took over 1 second. On a modern machine it should take milliseconds. After profiling I found that 99%+ of our time was spent servicing a subscription tied to all events, that really only needed to subscribe to just one or two.

Along with that there are other reasons for long apparent boot up times:

- Waiting for other boards to connect and talk to each other. Your UI can't do anything until it knows the state from the main control.

- Randomized delays to prevent current surges after a blackout. You'll see this on ACs or other appliances that might have hundreds of identical units in a building.

- Waiting for flash memory to be readable

All of this adds up to seconds of boot time. Yet ultimately none of this matters to the business people because we're an appliance company, NOT a software company. Our software is mostly incidental to having a functioning product, and boot times could go way higher without the business being worried. Though recently yes, we have entered the data market hence the push for smart features. Word to the wise, avoid any appliance with Android in it if you don't like the idea of forced connected features!

I unfortunately don't have any solutions to most of the problems presented in the article. All I can do is continue to try writing bullet-proof software and push back against forced connected features.

Re: I won't connect my dishwasher to your cloud

#234
post #225

Bosch! I ran into the same situation. I specifically told the salesperson I didn't want wifi, and they told me it's only if you want it to operate from your phone. I was done installing it and got rid of the packaging by the time I read that it needs to use their website for some functions. Beside the fact that I doubt the store would take it back after using it for a week or two and havi go no packaging, I had no ti…

I had sort of the opposite situation. I needed a new washer and all the top rated ones according to Consumer Reports included WiFi. I asked at Home Depot if the one I was thinking of getting, an LG WM3400CW, required me to actually use the WiFi and they said no. I used it for a few weeks without ever even trying to set up WiFi and everything was fine. Then I found at that when you set up an LG washer for WiFi you can…

That sounds perfect. This needs to go on a list for the next time I need to replace a dishwasher.

Re: I won't connect my dishwasher to your cloud

#235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My hope—which has been borne out by some correspondence I've already gotten today—is that some other consumers may be spared the experience I had. Since I have a tiny bit of reach online, I figured I'd use it FWIW to maybe impact Bosch's sales by like 0.000001%. Because that's better than 0.000000001% :)

We are going to be replacing our dishwasher in the next year and Bosch is off my list for now. I’m a little afraid I’ll find out that a dishwasher wanting engagement is the new normal. Our current dishwasher is a GE and it does a great job washing dishes, but has developed a few quirks that leads me to believe we are living on borrowed time.

My five year old GE dishwasher has WiFi and a "Smart HQ" app, which also connects to my GE ovens. I used it for a while, and then it stopped working and required an update, and re-authorization. I never re-authorized, and I don't really miss the "smart" connectivity. The most annoying thing (for me) about all of this is that the GE ovens have a nice easy-to-read digital clock, but the clocks use a low-quality reference oscillator (apparently not the 60Hz line frequency), so they drift. After spending some time researching, I was able to get the oven clocks to use NTP via (isolated vlan) WiFi, without needing to use the app at all. Unfortunately, the clocks still need to be manually updated twice year when DST kicks on and off.

I did try all of the configuration possibilities with regard to DHCP:

dhcp-option=option:ntp-server,132.163.96.1

dhcp-option=option:time-offset,0xFFFF8F80 #(Standard time)

#dhcp-option=option:time-offset,0xFFFF9D90 #(Daylight time)

dhcp-option=option:posix-timezone,'PST8PDT7,M3.2.0/02:00,M11.1.0/02:00'

I've never actually found any IoT device that recognizes or correctly uses these.

I've no idea if the newer GE products are still this bad, but I'll be shopping for "dumb" appliances on the next appliance refresh cycle.

Re: I won't connect my dishwasher to your cloud

#236

Bosch! I ran into the same situation. I specifically told the salesperson I didn't want wifi, and they told me it's only if you want it to operate from your phone. I was done installing it and got rid of the packaging by the time I read that it needs to use their website for some functions. Beside the fact that I doubt the store would take it back after using it for a week or two and havi go no packaging, I had no ti…

Literally have a Bosch dishwasher that has none of this Wifi garbage. It is amazing and super low sound compared to the 10 year old one that self destructed and nearly wrecked my basement bedroom (and the electrical panel).

Strongly recommended, would buy it again - as long as they don't have any insane IoT garbage included.

Re: I won't connect my dishwasher to your cloud

#237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's the problem with having a smart TV but simply never using the smart functions? Mine works perfectly, once in a quarter shows some pup-up that I dismiss and that's it. BTW I needed to connect it to local network because the remote has no button for changing brightness, so I do that from my PC.

often they have cellular chips and may simply be privacy pests.

I’ve heard this but I’ve never actually heard of any popular brand of TV that integrates cellular. I keep my LG and Sony TVs off the network and I’m 99.9% sure they have no way of accessing the Internet.

Re: I won't connect my dishwasher to your cloud

#238
post #159

Required reading: Unauthorized Bread by Cory Doctorow (excerpt: [0]; part of his book Radicalized [1]) [0]: https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2020/01/unauthorized-bread-a-... [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radicalized_%28Doctorow_book%2...

Or the poor mans version, "Please drink verification can" - http://i.imgur.com/dgGvgKF.png

reminds me of some dystopian short story I read somewhere, where society moves to a nearly full advertising economy, and everyone has to be an influencer about all the food / things they consume for the day, streaming themselves on camera live 24/7

Re: I won't connect my dishwasher to your cloud

#239

This is why I buy “commercial” appliances when I can. My speed queen washer and dryer each have two knobs and a start button. Thats all you need. I doubt I will need to ever replace them.

Last I checked, commercial dishwashers are very loud. I’ll trade some longevity for an appliance that is easier to live with.

Miele has some home dishwashers that are not too different from their commercial models.

Really spartan and silent. A knob and two buttons, or a couple of buttons and a led display. The price is also not too bad, around €750.

Re: I won't connect my dishwasher to your cloud

#240
post #225

Bosch! I ran into the same situation. I specifically told the salesperson I didn't want wifi, and they told me it's only if you want it to operate from your phone. I was done installing it and got rid of the packaging by the time I read that it needs to use their website for some functions. Beside the fact that I doubt the store would take it back after using it for a week or two and havi go no packaging, I had no ti…

I had sort of the opposite situation. I needed a new washer and all the top rated ones according to Consumer Reports included WiFi. I asked at Home Depot if the one I was thinking of getting, an LG WM3400CW, required me to actually use the WiFi and they said no. I used it for a few weeks without ever even trying to set up WiFi and everything was fine. Then I found at that when you set up an LG washer for WiFi you can…

Literally none of that requires cloud access though to accomplish that task.
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