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Turkish university annuls Erdogan rival's degree, preventing run for president

reuters.com

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Re: Turkish university annuls Erdogan rival's degree, preventing run for president

#151

Post by eru »

alephnerd wrote: post #72
msm_ wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From a brief reading of the wikipedia article you linked, I'm under impression that the accusations are baseless (given that there are - supposedly - witnesses and his former classmates that confirm his version, and apparently no whistleblowers that present a proof otherwise). The sources are in Turkish so I didn't consult them[1]. Is the article biased or omits some important context? Since you believe the degree is…

Before the 2000s, depending on how overtly conservative you were and who was in govenenent (coups, counter-coups, and fits of "democracy" happened every couple years), you might not have been allowed to attend at all. An entire generation of women from conservative backgrounds couldn't attend university in Turkiye until the 2000s because of the hijab ban. Unsurprisingly, once conservative Turkish politicians like Erd…

> Of course, those same conservative politicians then do the exact same shenanigans of corruption, power politics, and authoritarianism, and so the cycle continues.

The curious things was that early in Erdogan's reign, that is during the 2000s, Turkey seemed to be genuinely making progress, especially in terms of economic policy and outcomes. That's when he was still making fairly orthodox reforms more or less along the lines required by the EU for aspiring new members. (Yes, neoliberal reforms work!)

In the last few years we saw more 'interesting' economic ideas from Erdogan, like that high interest rates cause inflation.

Re: Turkish university annuls Erdogan rival's degree, preventing run for president

#152

Post by Aurornis »

bawolff wrote: post #77
overfeed wrote: post #31

In other, recent, non-related news, Columbia University revoked the diplomas of some pro-Palestine protestors[1]. The CBS headline buries the lede, but revoking diplomas is not too low for American universities. 1. https://www.cbsnews.com/newyork/news/columbia-university-pro...

From the article it sounds like they were revoked due to causing property damage to the university. Even if you disagree with that move, it seems like a rather different situation.

The article says they took over a building on campus, barricaded themselves inside, and damaged it. It also says they rejected a deal that would have resulted in dismissal of the charges but it’s not clear why.

That’s certainly a very different situation than simply being a protestor. I understand that everyone has different definitions of what protest means, but regardless it’s not a free pass to escape the consequences of your actions.

If any current or former students had taken over a campus building, locked others out of using it, and damaged it they’d probably end up in jail with a long list of charges. Having their degrees “temporarily revoked” seems like a massive slap on the wrist for the situation, not some dystopian unfair outcome.

Re: Turkish university annuls Erdogan rival's degree, preventing run for president

#153

Post by eru »

throwaind29k wrote: post #144
aiono wrote: post #9

I am from Turkey and this really concerns me. If we don't protest this in the streets and fight back I am afraid we don't have any kind of law anymore.

The more fundamental question is why a degree should be necessary to run for President. US does not require one for example.

The US requires a fairly high minimum age and for someone to be born American. Those requirements seem also a bit silly and stand in the way of voters expressing their wishes.

For some fun times, have a look at the requirements to become president in Singapore. Basically, you either have to have been a senior civil servant before or the CEO of a large and profitable company.

https://www.eld.gov.sg/candidate_presidential_qualify.html

Singapore's president is a figurehead, so it doesn't matter too much.

Re: Turkish university annuls Erdogan rival's degree, preventing run for president

#154

Post by Aurornis »

rapind wrote: post #129
cjbgkagh wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think in such situations it can be withheld but not withdrawn, it's pretty common for universities to hold back credentials until debts are paid. But once it's been given I think the only scenario which it can be withdrawn is if it was given under fraudulent circumstances. Like a newspaper retraction, it can only be retracted if the original statement was found to be false. The perpetrator should be sued for damage…

> Withdrawing properly received credentials opens the door to yet another extra-judicial punishment and we already have too many of those. I don’t understand why this is even an option? So the degree is never truly owned by the recipient then if it can be withdrawn/ revoked? Just another reason not to invest time and money into it.

> Just another reason not to invest time and money into it.

No it’s not. Not unless you plan on taking over campus buildings and vandalizing them, I guess.

The degree isn’t some unrevocable item that you own. It’s an endorsement from the university. There are contractual agreements involved and it doesn’t take much imagination to think of how taking over a campus building and vandalizing it (while encouraging current students to join you) is grounds for them to cancel the degree.

Re: Turkish university annuls Erdogan rival's degree, preventing run for president

#155

Post by Aurornis »

matthewdgreen wrote: post #117
bawolff wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I actually tend to agree with this (once its given i think morally its too late to take it away, except maybe if they cheated). I still think its a totally different situation than the turkey one though.

They are both situations in which a University was politically pressured by the government to revoke degrees for political purposes. The difference is just the specific goals of the government doing the pressuring. You don’t think Columbia just coincidentally decided to take this action months after the fact, after having its funding pulled by the US administration, do you?

I don’t think you understand how long it takes for universities to decide how to handle punishment situations.

This one has a significant complication of parallel legal action. They seized and vandalized a building. They’ve been reviewing evidence and building cases for a long time.

These things take time.

Re: Turkish university annuls Erdogan rival's degree, preventing run for president

#156

Post by Aurornis »

spwa4 wrote: post #109
upofadown wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How would they revoke someone's degree in either country? Do they break into someone's house and steal the piece of paper? A degree is awarded by the institution but I don't see how they could then claim that they did not meet the requirements for the degree retroactively absent some proof of academic misconduct. What possible difference would such a renovation make to anyone outside the university?

The value of a degree is in that the institution confirms, at any request, that said person has that degree. It's not the paper.

That’s an unnecessarily reductionist take. The value is obviously having demonstrated that you’ve completed the studies required.

The degree is simply the formal proof. If a degree is revoked, that’s a secondary signal that the studies were marked as completed at one time but something later happened that was so egregious that the university felt the need to rescind any endorsements.

Discovery of rampant cheating to achieve graduation would do it. Taking over a campus building and vandalizing it seems like a reasonable thing to cause the university to want to rescind their endorsement of you.

Re: Turkish university annuls Erdogan rival's degree, preventing run for president

#157

Post by tialaramex »

throwaind29k wrote: post #144
aiono wrote: post #9

I am from Turkey and this really concerns me. If we don't protest this in the streets and fight back I am afraid we don't have any kind of law anymore.

The more fundamental question is why a degree should be necessary to run for President. US does not require one for example.

The US does have some very weird rules for its Presidents though, both written rules - the "natural born citizen" clause for example, or the minimum age (thirty five years old) and the unwritten rules - no women have ever been elected to this role although the rules don't forbid it, most Americans have also indicated they wouldn't elect anybody who admitted to atheism...

Re: Turkish university annuls Erdogan rival's degree, preventing run for president

#158

Post by Aurornis »

overfeed wrote: post #58
7e wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Their diplomas were not revoked for being pro-Palestine, they were revoked for seizing a building, trespassing and vandalism. That's a false equivalence to what is happening in Turkey.

2 questions: 1. Why now (for Columbia)? 2. Why now (for Turkey)? The fact that it's in the realm of possibility that the answer is the same for both (political expedience) is a stain on America/Columbia U.

The Columbia incident was only a few months ago and they’ve been going through the process of building a case, pursuing legal options, and reviewing evidence.

The article says there were over 40 people involved and they’ve been building cases against each of them.

I don’t think there’s a conspiracy here. These things are a lot of work, involve a lot of lawyers, and take a lot of time. It’s only been a few months.

Re: Turkish university annuls Erdogan rival's degree, preventing run for president

#159

Post by dylan604 »

eru wrote: post #153
throwaind29k wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The more fundamental question is why a degree should be necessary to run for President. US does not require one for example.

The US requires a fairly high minimum age and for someone to be born American. Those requirements seem also a bit silly and stand in the way of voters expressing their wishes. For some fun times, have a look at the requirements to become president in Singapore. Basically, you either have to have been a senior civil servant before or the CEO of a large and profitable company. https://www.eld.gov.sg/candidate_president…

Having someone born in the country they are looking to lead seems silly to you?

With that restriction, it has taken quite some time for a foreign adversary to have a puppet elected vs just shipping in some carpet bagger.

Having a minimum age also allows for some decent life experience. After all, 35 years old is not that old.

Re: Turkish university annuls Erdogan rival's degree, preventing run for president

#160

Post by rayiner »

alephnerd wrote: post #72
msm_ wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From a brief reading of the wikipedia article you linked, I'm under impression that the accusations are baseless (given that there are - supposedly - witnesses and his former classmates that confirm his version, and apparently no whistleblowers that present a proof otherwise). The sources are in Turkish so I didn't consult them[1]. Is the article biased or omits some important context? Since you believe the degree is…

Before the 2000s, depending on how overtly conservative you were and who was in govenenent (coups, counter-coups, and fits of "democracy" happened every couple years), you might not have been allowed to attend at all. An entire generation of women from conservative backgrounds couldn't attend university in Turkiye until the 2000s because of the hijab ban. Unsurprisingly, once conservative Turkish politicians like Erd…

Sounds like Trump getting revenge on the PMCs in America now.
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