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Docs – Open source alternative to Notion or Outline

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Re: Docs – Open source alternative to Notion or Outline

#81

Post by sMarsIntruder »

johndhi wrote: post #19
nchagnet wrote: post #6

This is a really great project from both the French and German governments. I think state-funded open source solutions to digital platforms is a fantastic opportunity to get away from the big tech walled gardens. Of course, there is always the risk that this becomes unmaintained in the future, but the community at least can take over. But until then, it's a nice platform and a nice contribution to the community.

I haven't thought about this a ton - but am I wrong that it sounds crazy and inefficient for the government to essentially compete with private industry? It feels like a colliding of worlds and a cannibalization that doesn't make sense to me. Like - if the government launched a messaging app competitive with WhatsApp and it drew users away from WhatsApp and it had better encryption ... Would that actually be better f…

You’re right. That’s economically inefficient, but apparently seems to be the only way to create models that compete with the bigs. IMHO this repo will die within few years, and that’s both a pity and a waste of public money.

Re: Docs – Open source alternative to Notion or Outline

#82

Post by jdvh »

rglullis wrote: post #72
jdvh wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the short term a free open source govt alternative may be a net positive for society. I don't think it is in the long run. Government projects like these are not likely to really push the state-of-the-art forward. This project even advertises itself as a FOSS Notion alternative. Do government-sponsored clones encourage or stymie innovation? I think the latter. Every week we read in the news that the EU struggles w…

Your whole argument is based on neomania: progress is always good and there is no point in working on something unless it advances the state of the art.

Certainly not. I don't believe progress is always good. But subsidies should be reserved for ambitious projects that push the state of the art forward. For those projects that realistically will not get funded commercially. CERN, for instance.

Re: Docs – Open source alternative to Notion or Outline

#83

Post by wslh »

nchagnet wrote: post #6

This is a really great project from both the French and German governments. I think state-funded open source solutions to digital platforms is a fantastic opportunity to get away from the big tech walled gardens. Of course, there is always the risk that this becomes unmaintained in the future, but the community at least can take over. But until then, it's a nice platform and a nice contribution to the community.

> Of course, there is always the risk that this becomes unmaintained in the future

We can't even be certain that Notion won't be acquired, deprecated, or poorly maintained in the future. Risks exist on both sides.

Re: Docs – Open source alternative to Notion or Outline

#84

Post by afavour »

KronisLV wrote: post #75
nchagnet wrote: post #6

This is a really great project from both the French and German governments. I think state-funded open source solutions to digital platforms is a fantastic opportunity to get away from the big tech walled gardens. Of course, there is always the risk that this becomes unmaintained in the future, but the community at least can take over. But until then, it's a nice platform and a nice contribution to the community.

Personally, even if this software wouldn't be 1:1 capable of replacing the established players, it still feels like a good idea. With how much people (rightfully) complain about how open source is underfunded and with how often we're forced into borderline exploitative dealings with the established players in the market (the likes of MS Office, Adobe products, Atlassian products, even some Oracle stuff), funding the…

Germany has an interesting history with Open/LibreOffice. Multiple attempts that ended up going back to Windows, but with fresh attempts that are ongoing:

https://www.theregister.com/2024/04/04/germanys_northernmost...

Re: Docs – Open source alternative to Notion or Outline

#85

Post by fluidcruft »

johndhi wrote: post #19
nchagnet wrote: post #6

This is a really great project from both the French and German governments. I think state-funded open source solutions to digital platforms is a fantastic opportunity to get away from the big tech walled gardens. Of course, there is always the risk that this becomes unmaintained in the future, but the community at least can take over. But until then, it's a nice platform and a nice contribution to the community.

I haven't thought about this a ton - but am I wrong that it sounds crazy and inefficient for the government to essentially compete with private industry? It feels like a colliding of worlds and a cannibalization that doesn't make sense to me. Like - if the government launched a messaging app competitive with WhatsApp and it drew users away from WhatsApp and it had better encryption ... Would that actually be better f…

Private industry can always build on open source as well. The just work on the parts that don't involve reinventing the wheel.

Re: Docs – Open source alternative to Notion or Outline

#86

Post by thor-rodrigues »

wim wrote: post #52
mrweasel wrote: post #43

Looking at how much infrastructure needs to be spun up, I don't really see this as a good solution for personal note taking. If you use the Docker environment, you spin up 10 or more containers... including KeyClock. I get that this is intended to by hosted by a company or an organisation, but plenty of people are using Notion just as individuals. Most people would be better of with Obsidian, Bear, Notion or even App…

We're working on an "IDE for notes/tasks" [1] in the space of Notion and so on where you can easily self-host the sync backend with a single binary. The idea is that you can choose between cloud or self-host (and "eject" at any time to switch between the two if you ever change your mind). We hope that might be a good balance between some companies or individuals wanting to self-host but still making it accessible whe…

That looks VERY AWESOME. Really looking forward to try it :)

Re: Docs – Open source alternative to Notion or Outline

#87

Post by sMarsIntruder »

tough wrote: post #59
DeathArrow wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Do we have a tally of communist vs capitalist millions of victims I feel like we never had 'real' communism, as much as we never had real 'free markets' yet but that's just a vibe

Well there are/were many ‘real’ communism implementations of closed societies. While you’re right that there are no ‘free markets’ experiments, just some bad Crony Capitalism.

Re: Docs – Open source alternative to Notion or Outline

#88

Post by jdvh »

mikae1 wrote: post #70
jdvh wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the short term a free open source govt alternative may be a net positive for society. I don't think it is in the long run. Government projects like these are not likely to really push the state-of-the-art forward. This project even advertises itself as a FOSS Notion alternative. Do government-sponsored clones encourage or stymie innovation? I think the latter. Every week we read in the news that the EU struggles w…

> Europe should be making industry-leading apps. Europe should produce software startups that make products that get used worldwide. I've kind of lost hope when it comes to commercial services and proprietary apps. They're sadly all sooner or later enshittified. We need something different, not by promises but by design (FOSS). > EU subsidized clones of popular American products feels like admitting defeat. I think i…

I think the main problem is lock-in. If you can't get your data out you can't leave. This is true for open source and for commercial products alike.

If you own your data and if you have the option to self-host you can always opt out of updates you don't like.

Re: Docs – Open source alternative to Notion or Outline

#89

Post by afavour »

johndhi wrote: post #19
nchagnet wrote: post #6

This is a really great project from both the French and German governments. I think state-funded open source solutions to digital platforms is a fantastic opportunity to get away from the big tech walled gardens. Of course, there is always the risk that this becomes unmaintained in the future, but the community at least can take over. But until then, it's a nice platform and a nice contribution to the community.

I haven't thought about this a ton - but am I wrong that it sounds crazy and inefficient for the government to essentially compete with private industry? It feels like a colliding of worlds and a cannibalization that doesn't make sense to me. Like - if the government launched a messaging app competitive with WhatsApp and it drew users away from WhatsApp and it had better encryption ... Would that actually be better f…

IMO there are a few interesting things to unpack here. Going to put your WhatsApp comparison aside because I don’t think it’s actually applicable.

When it comes to software these governments are already shelling out X amount of money (which they don’t with WhatsApp, hence putting it aside). If they can make a comparable product they themselves own with X * 0.5 money it’s a clear win. Even if it’s X * 1.5 money to begin with while they create the software then decreasing over time as the software stabilises it’s still a win.

There’s an additional economic factor as well. For any country that isn’t the US licensing off the shelf software means transferring money directly to the US economy. Creating your own homegrown version keeps that money in your country, paying for employees that will themselves contribute to the economy. Without making the thread overtly political, this is something a lot of countries are thinking about more and more recently.

Re: Docs – Open source alternative to Notion or Outline

#90

Post by rglullis »

jdvh wrote: post #82
rglullis wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your whole argument is based on neomania: progress is always good and there is no point in working on something unless it advances the state of the art.

Certainly not. I don't believe progress is always good. But subsidies should be reserved for ambitious projects that push the state of the art forward. For those projects that realistically will not get funded commercially. CERN, for instance.

How is that a subsidy?

They are putting their resources into the development of a product that can be universally shared and used. There is no favored party.

Also, I completely disagree with the "ambitious projects". I actually would favor the government let all the risky ventures to private enterprises and focused only on tried-and-true developments and make them universally available to its citizens.

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