Live data from Hacker News

“Normal” engineers are the key to great teams

spectrum.ieee.org

91–100 of 543 posts

Re: “Normal” engineers are the key to great teams

#91
post #36

> 10x engineers have dark backgrounds, are rarely seen doing user-interface work, and are poor mentors and interviewers If you think a great (10x) engineer has bad social skills, isn’t a good mentor, and isn’t a strong teammate… you’ve never actually worked with one. What truly makes someone a great engineer is being technically impeccable and having next-level soft skills.

That is a nice theory. But if someone is doing 10x more work, they get 10x more emails, and 10x more mentoring. They are not rude, just very very tired!

10x devs do not do mentoring and "social skills", because it does not scale. They write readme, maybe record a video, and move on to next task. If you have a question, send email and you get response latter! Sitting all day on meetings kills productivity very fast!

Buttering someone up, just because they are lazy to study documentation, and somehow they have power over you, is not a team work!!!

Re: “Normal” engineers are the key to great teams

#92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> completely obsessed with the project, like it’s their main hobby/purpose I think you figured it out.

If your main hobby or purpose is to make someone else rich you're a slave.

If you're not making someone with a lot more money than you even richer you're probably not earning much yourself.

This is about how capitalism is structured it's not at all a matter of personal choice.

Re: “Normal” engineers are the key to great teams

#93

I think 10x is an exaggeration but I've found its really common to have 1-2 people who do a big bulk of the work The thing I don't understand personally with these people is why they care so much about work when the rewards are not proportionate to doing so much extra work. I get it if you're a founder of a startup but not if you're at a big company Yet every big company I've worked at there are always 1-2 people on…

Once you’re paid some minimum threshold you stop caring about money and start caring about your legacy.

Re: “Normal” engineers are the key to great teams

#94

I like this article particularly because I think the trope that there's something unique and different about software engineering is pretty toxic, both to we people in the field and people looking to employ people in the field. These days it feels a bit like another well known toxic field, finance, in that people conflate an outsized leverage for personal valor. It's laudable to do your work well and go home to the r…

> I like this article particularly because I think the trope that there's something unique and different about software engineering is pretty toxic

The ratio of software engineers working in novel design spaces compared to plumbing style work is best guess ~1:5.

The ratio in more mature fields like civil engineering is closer to ~1:500.

There are lots of similarities between software engineers and the few folk in civil etc doing actual novel design work.

> Nothing that we do is so unique that another competent engineer shouldn't be able to fill in for you when you are having an off day.

In novel design spaces people are not fungible.

Re: “Normal” engineers are the key to great teams

#95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If your main hobby or purpose is to make someone else rich you're a slave.

Imagine taking pride in your craft rather than doing only the bare minimum to pad your ego, what a crazy approach!

Taking pride in your craft would mean having enough self-respect to both not burn your soul out for the sake of a corporation that wants to make you redundant and using it in a direction that directly benefits you.

I've been in the industry long enough now to see those 10x engineers having pride in their work get their mindset shattered because John from financials thinks they can juice the next quarter by laying them off.

If you want to have pride in your work as a supposed 10x engineer, work at 2x or 3x and save the remaining for yourself.

Re: “Normal” engineers are the key to great teams

#96

"A truly great engineering organization is one where perfectly normal, workaday software engineers, with decent skills and an ordinary amount of expertise, can consistently move fast, ship code, respond to users, understand the systems they’ve built, and move the business forward a little bit more, day by day, week by week." plus plus plus plus plus to this.

If this were true then software engineering jobs would have all already been offshored.

Software is much closer to a competitive race where small improvements in ability give completely outsized returns.

Re: “Normal” engineers are the key to great teams

#97

I like this article particularly because I think the trope that there's something unique and different about software engineering is pretty toxic, both to we people in the field and people looking to employ people in the field. These days it feels a bit like another well known toxic field, finance, in that people conflate an outsized leverage for personal valor. It's laudable to do your work well and go home to the r…

> something unique and different about software engineering

how much does the strength/weight ratio of building materials improve every year? how much does the price/quality ratio of building materials fall every year?

software engineering is working with technology where compute capacity was doubling and price/performance was halving every two years for decades. this rate of change has slowed, but in a world where the price of everything else inflates, software is a rare field that works with a continually deflating capital base.

the uniqueness of software development is real and based on underlying physical/economic factors that exist in very few industries.

software developers are not unique. they are still human. but the profession is unique and the financial incentives are unique.

consistent, careful, workmanlike effort over time wins on average, but because the incentives are large, many people will take the risk to get exceptional rewards.

i approach software development like a professional athlete. i work on optimizing every aspect of my performance (physical, mental, social, technical) to be the very best i can be. anyone who applies this level of dedication in any field will be highly successful, but it requires dedication, sacrifice, and risk, which many people are not willing to accept.

the world is full of exceptional software and algorithms designed by unique individuals who developed things nobody else could or would. there is a reason why mathematical discoveries are named after the people who discovered them.

building software for large corporations necessarily revolves around median-level teams, because mean-reversion always happens at scale, but that is also why a great deal of technical innovation takes place outside of large corporations.

Re: “Normal” engineers are the key to great teams

#98
post #93

I think 10x is an exaggeration but I've found its really common to have 1-2 people who do a big bulk of the work The thing I don't understand personally with these people is why they care so much about work when the rewards are not proportionate to doing so much extra work. I get it if you're a founder of a startup but not if you're at a big company Yet every big company I've worked at there are always 1-2 people on…

Once you’re paid some minimum threshold you stop caring about money and start caring about your legacy.

Ah yes, my legacy: UserOAuthLoginProfileAPIService

Re: “Normal” engineers are the key to great teams

#99
Sometimes I feel useless compared to other people - usually while I'm struggling with something and seem to be achieving nothing. This talk of xN programmers absolutely hits on all my insecurities.

Then other days I solve 3 problems for other people which are easy for me because I have bashed my head against those particular kinds of walls before. I suddenly feel worthy again.

I'm productive when I know exactly what I'm going to do but getting to that point is hard and looks like I'm doing nothing. I find that people who are more productive than me often just don't hesitate and take all the easy exits that I waste time worrying about. I can't give up on my style because I always feel happier with the result.

Sometimes they're just faster because they're repeating a successful pattern they've used before.

I have often had to fix code written by "reputedly" very productive people and it's not a rule but more than a few times it has been very brittle and unmaintainable.

What I'm saying is that speed is usually NOT magic. It's achieved in a particular way and that is sometimes not good....but you tend to find out later.

Re: “Normal” engineers are the key to great teams

#100
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Software is different. All other engineering disciplines are ultimately limited to building things in (at most) 3 euclidean dimensions. There is only so much junk you can hide in a finite volume of space. Code by comparison lives in hyperbolic space [0] and you can hide _anything_ in such a space without it being obvious. This is exemplified by the unpleasant discovery all of us have had of a supposedly peripheral fo…

Disagree. What makes software unique to other engineering disciplines is that it isn't a discipline at all. What makes software so great is how quick the iteration cycles are. Software sits at a higher abstraction level than physical hardware, so much of our time is spent throwing at the wall and seeing what sticks because that's often (although not always) the best use of time.

There is a discipline, it's just very fast-growing. Many techniques remain and become classics, it just takes awhile to realize what is fad vs classical.
Post reply on HN