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Tesla created secret team to suppress driving range complaints (2023)

reuters.com

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Re: Tesla created secret team to suppress driving range complaints (2023)

#221

Post by viraptor »

masklinn wrote: post #217
hedora wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Counterpoint: Our BMW i3 gets EPA range on my round trip commute in the summer. It starts at the top of a mountain with a “100%” (actually 90% according to reverse engineering) battery (a tesla couldn’t regen in that situation, the bmw can). It can be as low as 80% of EPA range with the heat pump cranked up in low 30F’s weather. I’ve carefully measured two other EVs (not Tesla) on that route. One gets 110% of EPA, bu…

> It starts at the top of a mountain with a “100%” (actually 90% according to reverse engineering) battery (a tesla couldn’t regen in that situation, the bmw can). Ah so BMW advertises (and charges to I assume?) 10% less capacity than actual, which both reduces wear and allows regen even on full battery? That's actually pretty cool. They're effectively sacrificing marketing for user experience.

It's not that great for a solution. You can set the 90% in other cars too. With the extra benefit of being able to use 100% when you occasionally want to.

Re: Tesla created secret team to suppress driving range complaints (2023)

#222

Post by roelschroeven »

gerdesj wrote: post #48
gerdesj wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I also own an EV. Mine is a Seik MG4 (long range) - a Chinese beastie with an old school British marque slapped on it. I went to school in Abingdon, Oxon, which is where the Morris Garage comes from. My car didn't! There is a standard for range - WLTP - does the US subscribe to it? The W stands for Worldwide. My car has a WLTP range of 323 miles. I've managed better than that. The standard itself is pretty decent and…

Oh and I should probably ask how you felt when you first floored the pedal on your Tesla and realised it was sodding dangerous! EVs have ferocious acceleration - no gears and no need to "wind up". I used to own a Honda S2000 which was pretty funky - it could lift off in sixth gear and run up to around 150mph. EVs basically destroy ICEs - no gear box. I did rather enjoy the S2000 when it hit 6500 rpm and then it decid…

> EVs have ferocious acceleration

Not all of them. It's pretty easy for manufacturers to make ridiculously fast accelerating cars, and it seems those cars get all the attention. But there are others. I drive a Volvo XC40, which comes in two variants: one with two motors, one with a single engine. The two motors variant does 0 - 100 kmh in 4.9 seconds, which is pretty fast; to get that acceleration in an ICE car you'd need a pretty sporty sport car. But the variant with a single engine (which is the one I drive) does it in about 8 seconds, which is plenty fast for me but certainly not in ferocious acceleration territory.

I have no numbers on relative market shares of very fast vs more normal EVs. It wouldn't surprise me that the share of normally accelerating EVs will increase over time as we get cheaper cars meant for a larger public instead of expensive cars for enthusiasts.

BTW that fast acceleration of EVs is mostly at lower speeds. At higher speeds the benefits of an electric drive train diminish and depending on the specifics the EV might very well accelerate slower than an ICE.

Re: Tesla created secret team to suppress driving range complaints (2023)

#223

Post by masklinn »

viraptor wrote: post #221
masklinn wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It starts at the top of a mountain with a “100%” (actually 90% according to reverse engineering) battery (a tesla couldn’t regen in that situation, the bmw can). Ah so BMW advertises (and charges to I assume?) 10% less capacity than actual, which both reduces wear and allows regen even on full battery? That's actually pretty cool. They're effectively sacrificing marketing for user experience.

It's not that great for a solution. You can set the 90% in other cars too. With the extra benefit of being able to use 100% when you occasionally want to.

> You can set the 90% in other cars too.

That has to be an option, which you need to know exists, and actively use.

Hell, bmw could expose that exact same setting the other way around, and maybe they do. But defaults are important, and from a UX perspective I think they have the better one.

Re: Tesla created secret team to suppress driving range complaints (2023)

#224

Post by jonathantf2 »

ozim wrote: post #142
LeoPanthera wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I sold my Tesla after 4 years, because I refused to own it out of warranty. No longer being associated with Musk is a bonus. During the 4 years, it needed servicing (for actual faults, not for maintenance) 13 times. 4 of those times were "Car is dead" and it had to be towed. To book service, you have to use the app. There's no phone number. You pick a date which is usually at least a week in advance, type in what's w…

To be fair i don’t think there is a business where I can make an appointment in the same week. I have ICE and getting basic oil change must be week in advance even when I call, I never get “we can book you tomorrow”. Heck gettin haircut in my area they have calendars blocked so you have to plan with a week in advance. Super annoying as I have a simple cut and most of time it can be done in 15mins. Ok washing down cut…

I had an issue with my Toyota where it was making a really loud rattling noise before a big drive I had planned the next day - called a local garage and dropped it off an hour later, got it back end of the day.

Re: Tesla created secret team to suppress driving range complaints (2023)

#225

Post by a-french-anon »

Lanolderen wrote: post #193
gerdesj wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh and I should probably ask how you felt when you first floored the pedal on your Tesla and realised it was sodding dangerous! EVs have ferocious acceleration - no gears and no need to "wind up". I used to own a Honda S2000 which was pretty funky - it could lift off in sixth gear and run up to around 150mph. EVs basically destroy ICEs - no gear box. I did rather enjoy the S2000 when it hit 6500 rpm and then it decid…

Tbh an S2000 nowadays is somewhat slow. Fun and cool but not quick. Electrics do stupid good launches 0-30 but past that you're just comparing a brand new likely 4-500hp car to a very peaky, old, 240hp car.

Somewhat slow compared to what, though? It didn't cost a fortune. A 2.0L MX-5 ND is the nearest modern equivalent and they should both do the 0-60 in ~6s.

I mean, those two were never "performance cars" (though the S2000 should be rather good in the bends for a convertible), but this isn't slow nor quick in my books.

Re: Tesla created secret team to suppress driving range complaints (2023)

#226

Post by viraptor »

masklinn wrote: post #223
viraptor wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not that great for a solution. You can set the 90% in other cars too. With the extra benefit of being able to use 100% when you occasionally want to.

> You can set the 90% in other cars too. That has to be an option, which you need to know exists, and actively use. Hell, bmw could expose that exact same setting the other way around, and maybe they do. But defaults are important, and from a UX perspective I think they have the better one.

90% can be the default too. My point is that making that behaviour enforced and hidden is not a great from the UX pov

Re: Tesla created secret team to suppress driving range complaints (2023)

#227

Post by lnsru »

rrr_oh_man wrote: post #171
rrr_oh_man wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Use our useful tool to get an estimated range based on factors such as your driving style, battery size and Volkswagen electric vehicle model. That’s such a VW sentence.

Seems I angered some VW PR people

Sounds like the text was written by my German native speaker colleague and then translated to English. But the tool is fine. The range drops dramatically in winter on the autobahn. -1% or more per minute of driving. Not thinkable with petrol car.

Re: Tesla created secret team to suppress driving range complaints (2023)

#228

Post by SkyPuncher »

KAMSPioneer wrote: post #168
SkyPuncher wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When you understand how the EPA actually test this, it makes sense. "Highway" isn't anything like what most people think it is. It's not cruising at 75mph with no traffic on a major interstate. It's more like busy country road driving. > The "highway" program, on the other hand, is created to emulate rural and interstate freeway driving with a warmed-up engine, making no stops (both of which ensure maximum fuel econo…

I'm sorry but this is a pet peeve of mine: drag force does not scale exponentially with velocity, it scales with the square of velocity. Your point stands, of course.

Yes, you’re right.

I’ve gotten use to saying this incorrectly because most people aren’t trained on (or at least don’t remember) the difference between various types of growth functions. Exponential registers much more clearly in everyday conversation.

Re: Tesla created secret team to suppress driving range complaints (2023)

#229

Post by evandijk70 »

prmoustache wrote: post #180
gerdesj wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I also own an EV. Mine is a Seik MG4 (long range) - a Chinese beastie with an old school British marque slapped on it. I went to school in Abingdon, Oxon, which is where the Morris Garage comes from. My car didn't! There is a standard for range - WLTP - does the US subscribe to it? The W stands for Worldwide. My car has a WLTP range of 323 miles. I've managed better than that. The standard itself is pretty decent and…

> In Europe I think that EV vs !EV is almost certainly won For people living in single family homes or in appartments with dedicated parking space, yes. But lots of people are still living in apartments without a dedicated parking space. If you can't charge at home EV life is immediately a bit more compicated and expensive.

In the Netherlands, there is street charging everywhere. It is indeed a bit more expensive if you do not have a dedicated parking place, but not more complicated. By law, public charging has to be available in 'reasonable walking distance' from any EV owner. 'Reasonable walking distance' is defined by muncipalities, and tends to be higher in rural areas. Therefore it varies between a maximum of 150-500 meters depending on municipality.

Re: Tesla created secret team to suppress driving range complaints (2023)

#230

Post by rmu09 »

jillesvangurp wrote: post #197
elif wrote: post #86

Having road tripped from Florida to Washington and back in a big circle around the country, it is my firm belief that every single person complaining about the range estimates in a Tesla is speeding. By altering my driving style, I can get more range than the estimate. It's extremely predictable and accurate, to the point where I can notice the power drain from the self driving computers/cameras, arrive at the next s…

It's a valid point. The drag doesn't go up linearly as you accelerate but exponentially. So driving 5, 10, or 20 miles per hour faster at highway speeds has a huge impact. Your speed goes up by a few percent but the drag goes up a lot more. Also nice to keep in mind if you are driving a petrol car. Because the difference comes out of your pocket and the physics works the same way. The estimate the car gives you adjus…

Energy needed for elecation gain when going uphill is independent of speed (to first order, losses in drivetrain are probably a bit higher when driving with higher power).

Available max and continuous torque of electric vehicles isn't necessarily that high compared to ICE vehicles, whats really different is that torque is available instantly and from near 0 RPM and the motor reacts more or less "instantly".

BTW, combining "miles" and "kWh" is strange, shouldn't that be pound*mile²/h ?

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